This is 3000+ years from now and we're still using projectile weapons?

[b0rsuk]

That's a nice false dichotomy and not what I've said. "Low fantasy" settings like "Song of Ice and Fire" and the world of "Blade Itself" exist. It's completely normal that "low sci-fi" can exist as well. Especially that it's inspired by Firefly. Firefly didn't have rayguns and lasers largely because of budget limitations, but people liked it.

Low fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy fiction involving "nonrational happenings that are without causality or rationality because they occur in the rational world where such things are not supposed to occur."[1] Low fantasy stories are usually set in a fictional but rational world, and are contrasted with high fantasy stories, which take place in a completely fictional fantasy world setting with its own set of rules and physical laws.

It seems a number of people want sci-fi (or futuristic) elements to be central to Rimworld, but they're rather peripherial because that's what the setting is. It's a frontier world, Wild West in space with a sprinkle of new technologies and gimmicks.

[Mikhail Reign]

It's a frontier world, Wild West in space

Other then hats and dusters - name 5 things that make it 'Western'. Other then the robot faction, and a couple of other thing, you can almost say the same for space

It may as well be 'Post Apocalypse Earth 2025'

[SpaceDorf]

It's a frontier world, Wild West in space

Other then hats and dusters - name 5 things that make it 'Western'. Other then the robot faction, and a couple of other thing, you can almost say the same for space

It may as well be 'Post Apocalypse Earth 2025'

1.) The music
2.) The Tribals
3.) Muffalos, Bears and Cougars
4.) Cacti, You had to play in one of the hot and dry climates for most comparison
5. ) Social Fights and Broken Furniture

Whats missing are
Swinging Doors,
Gallows,
Horses,
whiskey and moonshine,
and sherriffs worth a damn

[b0rsuk]

Other then hats and dusters - name 5 things that make it 'Western'. Other then the robot faction, and a couple of other thing, you can almost say the same for space

1. Settlements raided by outlaws, firefights, lawlessness, you can do anything you like and the only price is faction relation or mood penalty
2. Arid Shrubland as the first biome ever in Rimworld. Untamed wilderness.
3. Firefly-inspired music
4. Animal husbandry (cowboys)
5. Someone always ends up dead.
6. Racist portrayal of natives. Dumb and vicious.

SpaceDorf: Sheriffs ARE worth a damn in this game! My coma child / sheriff is a brawler. I installed him 2 scyther blades and hope he never gets a mental break. He's my official switch flicker because he has 4 unlocked skills. But the game IS missing tumbleweed like hell!

personal shields

Personal shields are one of the few items you can't manufacture without mods, along with AI cores, charge lances and heavy charge blasters. Glitterworld items.

[Bozobub]

Plasteel - it is implied it's more resistant to heat because it's a spaceship material, and traditional rockets we have must endure very high temperatures coming from friction against air. Items made out of plasteel in Rimworld are very fire resistant, except power armor and charge rifles for no reason.

Why is a reskin needed ? Why not reskin swords, surely they must look different in year 5500 ?

The way a sword looks stems from
a) physics
b) human anatomy
There are variants, like longswords, rapiers for piercing, sabres which only cut, brittle katanas which require high skill to use because they're made of inferior iron, two-handed swords. But what else could possibly change ?

Similarly, assuming that physics and human anatomy don't change significantly until 5500, how do you infer different shape of a rifle from these ? If rimworlds have roughly the same materials and methods of production available that we have to day, how could they come up with something very different ? Only if there's some kind of discovery that doesn't require very high end factories and high tech production chains.

Ight screw it. Nope. Screw it. Every gun in game should look exactly like guns that are currently purchasable in real life with absolutely 0 deviation. The Charge Gun should be removed because its impossible over 1500 years for humans to deviant from a design at all - since it is impossible to store enough energy to be a weapon obviously it shouldn't exist either. Leading from that, the power armour, and power shield should also be removed. The energy required by the shield is the same as required by a gun (stopping/starting a bullet is the same energy requirement) so obviously thats impossible. Looking back at history its plain to see that we have used the M16 for a millennia, and will continue to use it until the extinction of out species.

...Said no one at all but YOU.  Nice sulk, there.

[KingKnee]

and literally no-one is talking about advanced sex robots at all.

[brcruchairman]

Plasteel - it is implied it's more resistant to heat because it's a spaceship material, and traditional rockets we have must endure very high temperatures coming from friction against air. Items made out of plasteel in Rimworld are very fire resistant, except power armor and charge rifles for no reason.

Why is a reskin needed ? Why not reskin swords, surely they must look different in year 5500 ?

The way a sword looks stems from
a) physics
b) human anatomy
There are variants, like longswords, rapiers for piercing, sabres which only cut, brittle katanas which require high skill to use because they're made of inferior iron, two-handed swords. But what else could possibly change ?

Similarly, assuming that physics and human anatomy don't change significantly until 5500, how do you infer different shape of a rifle from these ? If rimworlds have roughly the same materials and methods of production available that we have to day, how could they come up with something very different ? Only if there's some kind of discovery that doesn't require very high end factories and high tech production chains.

I assume that weapon design will have aesthetic differences or one very simple reason: they already have aesthetic differences. Compare the M16, G36, AK74, Steyr AUG, and FN FAL. They all have distinct shapes despite the identical physics, human anatomy, and approximate tech levels.

Furthermore, you explicitly assumed no advances in materials and methods. Yet plasteel is a common building product, thanks to the ruins of ancient empires. Similarly, there are other futuristic and pseudofuturistic advancements, such as drop pods. Things have changed, and as such I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the external appearance of some items to change as well.

In summation, it's my belief that, even with relatively minor changes in tech (e.g., new materials), given the variance in rifle appearances today it is not unreasonable to expect that there could be some significant variations in appearance over 3,000 years without modifying the core operating requirements.

As for why a reskin is necessary, that seems to be a matter of opinion. Some people feel that the contemporary weapon looks fits well. Others seem to feel that they're jarring, and don't fit in well with the setting. Personally, I don't have any real preference; I just felt that it bore mentioning that it wasn't unreasonable from a tech standpoint for a different design to surface.

As for advanced sex robots, yup, I fully admit I'm not talking about that. :p Perhaps discussing it has merit, but my interest lays more in the realm of firearm and technical details. What can I say, I'm a nerd. :p

[b0rsuk]

I assume that weapon design will have aesthetic differences or one very simple reason: they already have aesthetic differences. Compare the M16, G36, AK74, Steyr AUG, and FN FAL. They all have distinct shapes despite the identical physics, human anatomy, and approximate tech levels.

Okay, so assuming M16, G36 and so on differ mostly in aesthetics, do you... propose to have futuristic looking weapons just because the looks of current weapons bother you ? I mean, that's the main point of having futuristic weapons for you ? Cool aesthetics ? No exploring of new possibilities, no new mechanics ? What a waste !

This is what bothers me - many supporters of this thread want weapons that function the same, are futuristic but differ only in aesthetics. I've seen almost zero proposals for intriguing weapons. I fact, I probably made most of these in this thread. Like, a railgun that hits everything in a line (penetrates targets).

Furthermore, you explicitly assumed no advances in materials and methods. Yet plasteel is a common building product, thanks to the ruins of ancient empires.

It's required for the spaceship, they drop from the "ultimate" enemies in the game, and your map likely has 1-2 veins of it not counting deep drilling. A single tile (75) is what, 15000 HP to dig through ? I wouldn't call it common.

Similarly, there are other futuristic and pseudofuturistic advancements, such as drop pods. Things have changed, and as such I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the external appearance of some items to change as well.

Again, drop pods require a multi-analyzer, which makes them a tier 3 research item (Simple research bench = Town Hall, High-tech research bench = Keep, Multi-analyzer = Castle). Drop pods require a fairly rare resource - chemfuel, which you can obtain only from drilling and trade. Ground-penetrating scanner requires about the same amount of research as spaceship parts.

My point is that things you mention as common are in fact hard to obtain and near the top of the tech tree. They're rare in this setting.

As for why a reskin is necessary, that seems to be a matter of opinion. Some people feel that the contemporary weapon looks fits well. Others seem to feel that they're jarring, and don't fit in well with the setting.

Like they didn't fit in Firefly, which is the biggest inspiration behind Rimworld ?

There are probably more high tech / glitterworld items coming, including weapons. Current factions are very poorly fleshed out. There are differences between tribals and the rest (but not among tribals themselves - they're an unwashed, shapeless horde). But pirates and outlanders barely differ. I've never been at war with outlanders, but I think they don't use personal shields, mortars or drop pods. I haven't seen one with a charge rifle. That's it. I hope most of 'glitterworld' items are impossible to manufacture. The game is called Rimworld, not Glitterworld. I also very much hope that the new 'glitterworld' items provide new mechanics and not just visuals.

[SpaceDorf]

Furthermore, you explicitly assumed no advances in materials and methods. Yet plasteel is a common building product, thanks to the ruins of ancient empires.

It's required for the spaceship, they drop from the "ultimate" enemies in the game, and your map likely has 1-2 veins of it not counting deep drilling. A single tile (75) is what, 15000 HP to dig through ? I wouldn't call it common.

It's even rarer a single tile yields 35 Units not 75 ..

[CrazyEyes]

When we talk about how gun models wouldn't have changed, let's not forget that many of the gun models used in the game have already changed in real life.  To assume that they will not change any further in the next 500 or so years is a bit foolish.  It's true that we are already very good at making guns, and the limitations we have now are more about recoil and mobilty than design or technique.  But if human beings were not good at overcoming limits, we wouldn't be playing a video game about space colonization.

It seems that most people want is for the guns to look retro-western, or semi-futuristic, or both.  What I don't understand why anyone would want is for your space colonists with centuries of technological advancement behind them to be weilding a gun model from Earth circa 1968.

If you want the "space western" feel that Firefly evokes, then we should be seeing things like revolvers, shotguns, and lever or bolt-action rifles being the chief armament.  Wood rather than steel would be a primary component of the stocks, body, etc..  If you want a more "near future" feel then you should have assault rifles and SMGs that look like the designs have improved not only in function but to fit the aesthetic tastes of a society that has hundreds of years to change their minds about what looks good.  Maybe they've decided that gray is the new black when it comes to gun design, or prefer hard angles to rounded edges.

I can accept that modelling the guns after existing models is a deliberate choice to avoid needing to spend time developing the art when other areas of the game need more attention.  However, I strongly hope that they will change somewhere down the line to more accurately reflect the game's flavor, whatever that may end up being.

[brcruchairman]

Okay, so assuming M16, G36 and so on differ mostly in aesthetics, do you... propose to have futuristic looking weapons just because the looks of current weapons bother you ? I mean, that's the main point of having futuristic weapons for you ? Cool aesthetics ? No exploring of new possibilities, no new mechanics ? What a waste !

This is what bothers me - many supporters of this thread want weapons that function the same, are futuristic but differ only in aesthetics. I've seen almost zero proposals for intriguing weapons. I fact, I probably made most of these in this thread. Like, a railgun that hits everything in a line (penetrates targets).

I think I get where you're coming from, that high-tech futuristic sleek looks both wouldn't fit, are unnecessary, and wouldn't fit with the relatively small gains in efficacy, but I feel like you may be misunderstanding the point you're attacking; it's not that we want super high-tech sleek looking guns, just different looking guns. Like Mal's pistol, it looks like it could be at home in the 20th or 21st century, but is clearly not just a clone of one of those very same weapons. THAT'S what, as I understand it, is being advocated.

I'll also note, that what you've described would be interesting. It's not, however, what I think is currently being discussed; those are functional changes, which change how a weapon work, and would require significantly more work on the part of the devs to make it work. A reskin alone to make it look less like carbon-copies of 20th century weapons and more like similar but not identical weapons would be only half the work: sprites only, not sprites AND code.

It's required for the spaceship, they drop from the "ultimate" enemies in the game, and your map likely has 1-2 veins of it not counting deep drilling. A single tile (75) is what, 15000 HP to dig through ? I wouldn't call it common.

I would; the fact that bulk traders carry hundreds of units of it means that, while it's expensive, at the same time it's not some exotic prototype. Charge rifles and power armor both use the stuff in their production. Therefore, regardless of how we term it in terms of "rare" or "common", it is indisputably present within the tech base.

You did make the good point, however, that plasteel is a relatively infrastructure- and tech-intensive resource within Rimworld; the things that use it all require research. This is a good point; it'd make plasteel specifically less likely to be used in general, mid-level firearms. I still maintain that it's demonstrative of the greater point that materials have advanced, and advances could change the profile of a weapon.

Again, drop pods require a multi-analyzer, which makes them a tier 3 research item (Simple research bench = Town Hall, High-tech research bench = Keep, Multi-analyzer = Castle). Drop pods require a fairly rare resource - chemfuel, which you can obtain only from drilling and trade. Ground-penetrating scanner requires about the same amount of research as spaceship parts.

My point is that things you mention as common are in fact hard to obtain and near the top of the tech tree. They're rare in this setting.

I think I'd mentioned this above; a good point. A high-tech plasteel rifle might have a different profile, but it'd also be a different production level. I think the gist of my point, though, was more that advances in material sciences lead to corresponding changes in design profiles.

Like they didn't fit in Firefly, which is the biggest inspiration behind Rimworld ?

There are probably more high tech / glitterworld items coming, including weapons. Current factions are very poorly fleshed out. There are differences between tribals and the rest (but not among tribals themselves - they're an unwashed, shapeless horde). But pirates and outlanders barely differ. I've never been at war with outlanders, but I think they don't use personal shields, mortars or drop pods. I haven't seen one with a charge rifle. That's it. I hope most of 'glitterworld' items are impossible to manufacture. The game is called Rimworld, not Glitterworld. I also very much hope that the new 'glitterworld' items provide new mechanics and not just visuals.

I'd mentioned this above, but it sounds like what you're arguing against is making all the weapons shiny and sleek and futuristic. That's not what I, personally, am advocating; the point (which, again, I'll stress I don't feel strongly about one way or another) I'm trying to clarify is that some feel that weapons that are clones of extant ones feel jarring, and ones of similar tech level which just look different would be less jarring. Like, as you'd mentioned, in Firefly. I know that, personally, when I watched the series, I didn't see any of the weapons and go, "Oh hey, that's an MP5!" or "Wow, they just reused a Sig Saur? Laaame." Instead, despite all those weapons being functionally the same to present ones (in terms of, "Pull the trigger, goes boom") they all looked different.

I'd also like to say that I felt a bit put out by your post; it felt to me that you were putting many words in my mouth. (E.g., "just because the looks of current weapons bother you".) I rather doubt you care enough about me to make the effort to try to get my hackles up, 'cause I'm just some guy on the internet. :p

However, I'd like to point out that, at least to me, the way parts of that post came off was turning me into a straw man, misrepresenting what I was trying to say and then attacking it. I've done my best to avoid making anything personal, where I can. If I've failed in this, please let me know where and how so I can apologize; I don't like being a dick, but that doesn't mean I won't act like one. :p The best I can do is apologize and try to learn from it. Similarly, my hope is that you would similarly try to engage the points brought up (as you so effectively did with your point on plasteel and tech levels) without making the opinions of the other person the issue.

I'd also like to apologize if I HAVE misunderstood you and thus misrepresented your points; lord knows I'm not infallible, so if I've erred in my perception of what you're trying to say, or presented any of my points poorly so they felt like a personal attack, I hope you'll forgive my mistake.

[snip]

I feel like you've summed up what I was trying to say really nicely! Thanks, CrazyEyes; I appreciate the eloquent sum-up, particularly as it says the same thing much more briefly than anything I write. :p

[b0rsuk]

You're far too polite and intellectually honest to be on the internet. Begone!

I'm not a gun enthusiast. I know just a couple of the more popular or iconic guns and rifles, like AK47, MG42, Thompson etc. I've seen them in video games and movies, mostly. Note weapons in movies are rarely called by their name. But even bringing up Firefly into this - note the start of the first episode. They're fighting some war and losing. Their equipment looks notably more futuristic than in the rest of the show. You really get an impression military grade weapons are another league. I didn't pay attention to the way guns looked, but they were projectile weapons. My point - rimworlds use older weapons.

I don't want guns that look like plastic toys. They should look rugged and functional. I want guns with oomph, even if they sound very mundane. Futuristic weapons, especially energy weapons have a big problem: no library of sounds to draw from, and no real idea how they should sound like. They tend to sound puny - you know, pew pew. Show me a youtube of a energy weapon I would want to use. I haven't seen one.

[brcruchairman]

You're far too polite and intellectually honest to be on the internet. Begone!

Bwahaha! You're making me blush, good sir. *beams*

I'm not a gun enthusiast. I know just a couple of the more popular or iconic guns and rifles, like AK47, MG42, Thompson etc. I've seen them in video games and movies, mostly. Note weapons in movies are rarely called by their name. But even bringing up Firefly into this - note the start of the first episode. They're fighting some war and losing. Their equipment looks notably more futuristic than in the rest of the show. You really get an impression military grade weapons are another league. I didn't pay attention to the way guns looked, but they were projectile weapons. My point - rimworlds use older weapons.

I don't want guns that look like plastic toys. They should look rugged and functional. I want guns with oomph, even if they sound very mundane. Futuristic weapons, especially energy weapons have a big problem: no library of sounds to draw from, and no real idea how they should sound like. They tend to sound puny - you know, pew pew. Show me a youtube of a energy weapon I would want to use. I haven't seen one.

I think we can agree on this; if there were to be a weapon reskinning, I'd want it to look as you described, something rough-and-tumble, maybe even cobbled together, rather than sleek and futuristic. If I may ask, would some sort of modern-day looking weapon, but different in profile from modern designs, be agreeable to you? (Not that either of us have the authority to make it happen, but I like to reach a consensus when I can. ^ ^) I imagine something vaguely like the human weapons in Halo in terms of aesthetics; clearly still slug-throwers and looks similar to nowadays, just clearly also NOT a clone of an extant model.

You also make a good point regarding energy weapons; there just aren't many good sound effects for a Directed Energy Weapon out there. Probably because, while firearms make a distinct sound by their firing, DEWs wouldn't do so in the same way. As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, a DEW would likely do a very short, high intensity burst which would just make an explosion. Rather than sounding like a gun firing, it'd just be lotsa explosions. (As an example, here¹ is an example of a real-life DEW. Impressive, but not really something we'd see on squad-level combat. What we'd be more likely to see for a handheld weapon system seems more along these² lines, and the little "click" it gives would really not be satisfying for a player to hear.)

So, in summation, I think we can agree that "high-tech", much less energy weapons, wouldn't fit too well in the setting and would have the problem of lack of extant sounds to deal with.

¹: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F85f1FHxMEs
²: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3_XCnAlG0U

[CrazyEyes]

I'm not a gun enthusiast. I know just a couple of the more popular or iconic guns and rifles, like AK47, MG42, Thompson etc. I've seen them in video games and movies, mostly. Note weapons in movies are rarely called by their name. But even bringing up Firefly into this - note the start of the first episode. They're fighting some war and losing. Their equipment looks notably more futuristic than in the rest of the show. You really get an impression military grade weapons are another league. I didn't pay attention to the way guns looked, but they were projectile weapons. My point - rimworlds use older weapons.

I don't want guns that look like plastic toys. They should look rugged and functional. I want guns with oomph, even if they sound very mundane. Futuristic weapons, especially energy weapons have a big problem: no library of sounds to draw from, and no real idea how they should sound like. They tend to sound puny - you know, pew pew. Show me a youtube of a energy weapon I would want to use. I haven't seen one.

You make a good point about the sounds, and since we're talking about Firefly we may as well use that as an example.  They have some quite excellent sound effects for most of their guns.  Many of the guns have additional effects that indicate some sort of advanced technology at work.  Here's a good example I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjG6Saqaaos

It's little details like this that go a long way towards building a universe.  You watch that clip, and not only is the gun instantly recognizeable as a shotgun even though it's not any model of shotgun I've ever seen (the clip is altered and there's no stock), you immediately understand there's some technological aspect to it that makes it "better" in some unknowable way.  The guns we see in the show almost never function any differently than we'd expect their present-day counterparts to, but little bits of flavor like that convince us that they are different.

Also on the subject of Firefly, there are indeed "levels" of technology that are available to people.  That's exactly how the Alliance wants it.  The year is 2500-ish, i don't remember exactly, so there are definitely better weapons available than what Mal and his crew typically have access to.  The military has advanced hardware, and we even see that handheld laser weapons are a reality, although they are implied to be rare and insanely expensive and shown to be somewhat impractical.  However, when the Alliance settles a new world, they give them the garbage weapons and keep the technology level low on purpose to make sure that they don't have the strength to rise up.  That's why you see more revolvers and rifles and less assault weapons.  This probably isn't very different from what you'd expect to find on a rimworld, with the major difference being that the comparitively low technology level is entirely their own fault.

[Boston]

I, personally, would want them chunky, built-to-last, able to take a licking and keep on ticking, with sounds and effects to match.

Think about it: you are on a frontier world, a rough-and-tumble place at the best of times, you want a weapon that can stand up to that.



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