I think only an addition of skills and jobs will save this game :>

Started by Lightzy, February 09, 2017, 04:07:40 PM

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Lightzy

Not that it needs saving, of course. But if it did, this would be it.

The game's balance and storytelling strength are always skewed in weird ways that don't work, and it's because most pawns are useless and some are vital.
A better balanced game, which will tell much better stories, would be one where pretty much all pawns had some use, had something special about them.
Also you won't be leaving 95% of drop-pod survivors to die outside, and "wanderer joins" won't be usually a punishment (which I'm fairly certain isn't 'what the poet intended').

Hence,
Adding weaving/armormaking/weaponmaking/gunsmithing/etc skills, woodworking/stoneworking/siege construction/etc skills, fishing/trapping/butchering skills, would help break the monotonous despotism of craft/build.
And since there are more skills, it is more likely that a previously useless pawn will suddenly become very important in your colony, because he can make armors.

In short, the lack of skills/jobs is bad for the game, making every playthrough run about the same, while having many jobs will make each playthrough more unique, because sometimes you won't get an armorer, sometimes you won't get a weaver, sometimes you won't get a trapper (so no quality traps for you), etc., forcing you to play differently every time..
Not to mention more interesting stories and better story flow, since losing an armorer is sad, but not as 'permadeath' as losing your 'does it all' crafter, etc.

b0rsuk

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it again:

Rimworld suffers from Master Syndrome. For a number of skills, like:
Cooking,
Crafting,
Medicine*,
Animals,
Social,
Construction (quality),

you only care how high your BEST colonist is. One skill 14 cook is better than three skill 12 cooks. A skill 8 doctor can't assist a skill 11 doctor, he can only serve as a backup and heal the better doctor if both are sick.

For a number of skills you only need 1 colonist who performs this role and you're done. Other colonists who come later and are nearly as good give an impression that they're useless. Because effectively they are, they only serve as backups to protect from the bus factor.

Lightzy

That reminds me of Anthony Bourdaine's book (Kitchen Confidential) where he tells about his manager, where if there was a guy who would get 91% (or something, can't recall) yield from a fish and another who could get 90%, he'll always have the 90% butcher the fish.

I guess more skills will void that problem due to the massive reduction of overlap.

b0rsuk

I'm not sure Tynan wants more skills. He's worried about the Work tab becoming too large and complicated.

Barazen

True... for us veteran players this is nothing but convienience... but for newer players  that would be daunting
Anyone else felt their heart break when a pawns marriage falls apart?
Doc & Valarie, I shipped it, she flipped it.

BlackSmokeDMax

Quote from: b0rsuk on February 09, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
I'm not sure Tynan wants more skills. He's worried about the Work tab becoming too large and complicated.

Yep, and then there's some of us running Fluffy's Work Tab mod in Dwarf Therapist mode :)

XeronX

I would like to use fluffy's work tab mode but my old ass eyes are to bad for it. And resizing the UI for it makes everything else to damn big lol.

eadras

Some of the skills could use some more fleshing out.  Mining and art come to mind.  As for the wanderer joins event, I usually disable it in the scenario editor.  The "Hospitality" mod has a better solution, allowing the player to accept or decline the wanderer joining, but I don't usually use the mod because the gifting system seems to shatter any semblance of  economic balance.

Lightzy

I don't think it's quite valid an argument to have a broken system in order for 'new players' to not be 'daunted'.

I was a 'new player' and on my first game I already figured out that the 'wanderer joins' event punished me, that taking in useless pawns is dangerous and better let them die, and that the design makes no sense because every the skills are too all-inclusive.
Also figured out on the first run that ideal is 6-7 pawns, because anything more than that ... you simply don't need!  6-7 pawns cover everything.

The design, frankly, is bad, and this is a fix :)
Maybe there are more. I suggested another idea with pawns leveling up to get unique abilities, but whatever.

Lurmey

Quote from: Lightzy on February 10, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
Also figured out on the first run that ideal is 6-7 pawns, because anything more than that ... you simply don't need!  6-7 pawns cover everything.

My current colony has 11 full-time colonists, three arctic wolves, tons of alpacas and four elephants, along with 4 prisoners awaiting recruitment.
We're constantly running out of space for more food, so much so that I had to disable sowing on the small farms that we have. It's crazy, I don't know how we're producing so much corn and potatoes. Also, you'd need more people if you want to make caravans. Don't want to be sending your main constructor, cook, doctor etc out away from the colony when they might be needed most!

Just thought I'd put that out there.

Cracker21

Quote from: Lurmey on February 10, 2017, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: Lightzy on February 10, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
Also figured out on the first run that ideal is 6-7 pawns, because anything more than that ... you simply don't need!  6-7 pawns cover everything.

My current colony has 11 full-time colonists, three arctic wolves, tons of alpacas and four elephants, along with 4 prisoners awaiting recruitment.
We're constantly running out of space for more food, so much so that I had to disable sowing on the small farms that we have. It's crazy, I don't know how we're producing so much corn and potatoes. Also, you'd need more people if you want to make caravans. Don't want to be sending your main constructor, cook, doctor etc out away from the colony when they might be needed most!

Just thought I'd put that out there.

There's a good mod out there that lets you stack 10 times the amount of anything except for meat and single stack items. It works great for freezers and if your like me and run most games on Wood Burning generators i like to have a huge surplus of wood, you know... just in case.

Lightzy

You can have 900 if you want, but the ideal number remains 7.
Anything over that you have skill overlap which isn't necessary, and you get bigger raids, more shit thrown at you from the storyteller etc.

This is, again, because there are so few skills that 7 cover all you could ever need.
Crafter
Builder
Medic
Grower
Doc/Research

After that you can just get 2-3 useless guys for hauling/cleaning or other not really necessary tasks such as animal handling, cooking, diplomacy etc.

Serenity

Quote from: b0rsuk on February 09, 2017, 04:38:19 PM
A skill 8 doctor can't assist a skill 11 doctor, he can only serve as a backup and heal the better doctor if both are sick.
Optionally breaking down some skills would solve that. Add a third detailed work schedule menu that divides doctoring into operating, treatment and nursing (feeding and cheering up patients). Then bad doctors can do nursing, medium doctors can do treatment and your best doctor does operations.

NagaPrince

I feel like sometimes there's two groups of Rimworld players:

1. The Rimworlders that are typically not interested in experiencing random and sheer volumes of !FUN!, and like how for the most the game is currently implemented, just wanting more content and fixes, etc.

2. Then there's them, or I should say, us, including myself. The !FUN! crowd. Many player's that hail from Dwarf Fortress, and just want more of DF in their Rimworld lives. This can vary greatly in expectations and experiences of course, but I at least, just want more of DF in here, as far as content is concerned. I want more Biomes, Skills, Resources, Creatures, and just more content, including Water already lol.

But to add to the topic, Rimworld I find is somewhat hard to compare to DF sometimes because, in Rimworld you usually have FAR less Dwarf's than Pawn's. You'll have one Pawn responsible for 4-7 tasks, whilst your typical Dwarf is responsible for 2-4 even early on.

Lightzy

Didn't quite follow you Naga.
Both 'kinds' want more and the same type of content, so what's the difference?
Also absolutely nobody wants the game 'simplified'. So..