I think only an addition of skills and jobs will save this game :>

[sadpickle]

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it again:

Rimworld suffers from Master Syndrome. For a number of skills, like:
...
Medicine*,
...

How great would it be if surgeries could be performed with 2 or 3 doctors, and the sum (or some other maths, where poor skill actually subtracts) of their skill determined the outcome? Then there would be real incentive to having more than 1 doctor with good skill, and make surgeries feel more realistic.

[SpaceDorf]

Didn't quite follow you Naga.
Both 'kinds' want more and the same type of content, so what's the difference?
Also absolutely nobody wants the game 'simplified'. So..

The difference between fun and !FUN!

fun is the basebuilding and expanding part
!!FUN!! is the going down in a blazing shitstorm of glory part.
It hails from the unofficial DF Motto of Losing is Fun. While being embraced by !! and blinking red/yellow depicts being on fire.
Those players mostly identify themselves with references to ice-sheets and/or uncontrolled megalomania.

this also applies to !!SCIENCE!!, which is the art of turning every exploit, logic fault and bug into weapons of mass destruction.

[Aerial]

I posted this in a thread in General Discussion but it probably belongs here instead.  I'm new to the forum, so my apologies if I shouldn't have repeated the post.

I'd like to see there be a reason to keep multiple doctors around through specialization.  For instance, you could have specialties like Organ Replacement, Bionics Installation, Plastic Surgery (fix those noses and ears!), and Neurosurgery.

Any doctor above a certain skill threshold could train (maybe through the high tech research bench?) at most two of the specialties, and those abilities wouldn't be available without the specialization.  Unspecialized/lower skilled doctors would be medics or trauma surgeons who can stitch up bullet holes and melee weapon damage, install peg legs and eye patches, fight disease, etc. 

A trade to keep non-specialized doctors viable might be that a specialized doctor is very good in his specialty, but he won't be as good as an unspecialized trauma surgeon of the same skill level for dealing with the everyday stuff.

[b0rsuk]

I wish it was true, but Rimworld feels very controlled and safe for me. I play ice sheet not because it's batshit insane like Catacomb Kids, but because it feels complete. The level of challenge is right, even trivial events like cargo pods are exciting. Growing has an upkeep cost and doesn't go out of control with income.

Catacomb Kids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFxkxZj9Zk0

[Lightzy]

I posted this in a thread in General Discussion but it probably belongs here instead.  I'm new to the forum, so my apologies if I shouldn't have repeated the post.

I'd like to see there be a reason to keep multiple doctors around through specialization.  For instance, you could have specialties like Organ Replacement, Bionics Installation, Plastic Surgery (fix those noses and ears!), and Neurosurgery.

Any doctor above a certain skill threshold could train (maybe through the high tech research bench?) at most two of the specialties, and those abilities wouldn't be available without the specialization.  Unspecialized/lower skilled doctors would be medics or trauma surgeons who can stitch up bullet holes and melee weapon damage, install peg legs and eye patches, fight disease, etc. 

A trade to keep non-specialized doctors viable might be that a specialized doctor is very good in his specialty, but he won't be as good as an unspecialized trauma surgeon of the same skill level for dealing with the everyday stuff.

This is a great suggestion.
I also made such a suggestion a while back, inspired by a game called "Judgement" on steam. It's kind of a rimworld thing but much more early in development, and it has no useless pawns because pawns LEVEL UP and gain UNIQUE skills which no other pawn has. So only some pawn can build defensive building, another pawn is the only one who can make guns, another is the only one who can cast spells or whatever... while basic skills are available to everyone.


That will work just as well as having more professions, and will perhaps be even more interesting.
But an easier solution might be having more professions. Or best, have both:)

[Limdood]

my ideal high end colony has 2 cooks, 2-3 contructors, 2-3 crafters, 3-4 growers, 2 doctors minimum, 2 cleaners, 2 haulers (1 if i have many animals) 1-2 animal folks...1 can be unskilled for shearing/milking, 1-3 researchers (ideally with some other use for when research runs out), 1 recruiter (can double as hauler/cleaner), 0-1 dedicated miner (many others set to mine when not doing other stuff), 1 dedicated artist.

This means my ideal colony runs best with a MINIMUM of 2+2+2+3+2+2+2+1+1+0+1 = 18 pawns. 

i can use multiple crafters to actually make clothing and weapons and components at the same time.  multiple cooks 1 for night, 1 for day.  multiple constructors for night and day.  Many growers to make sure the fields are sown and harvested fast...fully grown crops or empty fields sitting there slow down food production.  a dedicated miner can really rake in the resources once you get to deep core.  With this size base, multiple cleaners and haulers are a must.  2 doctors, because you always need 1 to take care of the other...a third doesn't hurt to take care of large amounts of injured at once to prevent deaths.  Animals can be an amazing source of income and usable resources thru milk and wool, and someone needs to train the dogs/pigs...those 2 haulers will be overwhelmed fast at harvest.  A recruiter serves my purposes, as I've added EPOE and Hospitality, so i give a good talker 2 golden eyes (now he's blind) and he serves to get me good prices and cherry pick the best visitors.  I often have 2, sometimes 3 research benches in the colony to speed thru research.

Everyone's preferences vary...you might prefer 7 pawns as "ideal" - I consider 7 pawns to be early-midgame.

[SpaceDorf]

my ideal high end colony has 2 cooks, 2-3 contructors, 2-3 crafters, 3-4 growers, 2 doctors minimum, 2 cleaners, 2 haulers (1 if i have many animals) 1-2 animal folks...1 can be unskilled for shearing/milking, 1-3 researchers (ideally with some other use for when research runs out), 1 recruiter (can double as hauler/cleaner), 0-1 dedicated miner (many others set to mine when not doing other stuff), 1 dedicated artist.

This means my ideal colony runs best with a MINIMUM of 2+2+2+3+2+2+2+1+1+0+1 = 18 pawns. 

i can use multiple crafters to actually make clothing and weapons and components at the same time.  multiple cooks 1 for night, 1 for day.  multiple constructors for night and day.  Many growers to make sure the fields are sown and harvested fast...fully grown crops or empty fields sitting there slow down food production.  a dedicated miner can really rake in the resources once you get to deep core.  With this size base, multiple cleaners and haulers are a must.  2 doctors, because you always need 1 to take care of the other...a third doesn't hurt to take care of large amounts of injured at once to prevent deaths.  Animals can be an amazing source of income and usable resources thru milk and wool, and someone needs to train the dogs/pigs...those 2 haulers will be overwhelmed fast at harvest.  A recruiter serves my purposes, as I've added EPOE and Hospitality, so i give a good talker 2 golden eyes (now he's blind) and he serves to get me good prices and cherry pick the best visitors.  I often have 2, sometimes 3 research benches in the colony to speed thru research.

Everyone's preferences vary...you might prefer 7 pawns as "ideal" - I consider 7 pawns to be early-midgame.

That's Exactly how I play ..

[Lightzy]

It is indisputably ideal to stop at 7-8.
Because at that point you cover all the skills you require and can make a spaceship and finish the game no problem.


Of course you can play much less efficiently and get more, but it is, of course, inefficient. That's regardless of the fact that you like it better.

If you actually wanted to make the game better, then, you'd have said "wow awesome idea, I support", beause the idea basically makes it so that your size colony becomes ideal. More skills means that you need more pawns.

[SpaceDorf]

It is indisputably ideal to stop at 7-8.
Because at that point you cover all the skills you require and can make a spaceship and finish the game no problem.


Of course you can play much less efficiently and get more, but it is, of course, inefficient. That's regardless of the fact that you like it better.

If you actually wanted to make the game better, then, you'd have said "wow awesome idea, I support", beause the idea basically makes it so that your size colony becomes ideal. More skills means that you need more pawns.

I said so, earlier in the thread.
And my playstile is only part of why I support this Idea.

I really like this Idea because it would make the job setup easier.
Without using Fluffies DF Mode Work Tab.

[Limdood]

Ideal for what?  winning?  I guarantee i can win faster with 15 pawns than i can with 7...I can triple up on research, and force-generate resources much faster with more manpower.

For gaining wealth?  again, I can gain wealth far faster with 15 pawns than i can with 7...i can sow VASTLY bigger fields of smokeleaf and generate larger raids for looting.

for not dying?  more people gives more redundancy, which makes my colony far more resistant to fluke dangers.  Additionally more manpower means I can build critical defensive measures faster in a pinch, and reset and reorganize faster for back-to-back or simultaneous threats.

You have UTTERLY failed to define "ideal" and given the above 3 points, i strongly suspect that your assertion of 7-8 pawns being ideal is nothing more than being ideal for YOUR playstyle, which i'm assuming is maximized efficiency per pawn...which helps you to attain...what, exactly?

[SpaceDorf]

It is indisputably ideal to stop at 7-8.
Because at that point you cover all the skills you require and can make a spaceship and finish the game no problem.

@Limdood He says right here about his playstile.

But I am still with you, that more pawns make for more fun.

Not only skill wise but with the interactions between each other. More potential stories.
And it is more fun to defend a colony without turrets if you have more soldiers.

[Trylobyte]

One thing for us Dwarf Fortress fans to remember (I love me some Dwarf Fortress, it's what drew me to Rimworld) is that in Rimworld you often have 6-10 colonists in your first few seasons/years but in Dwarf Fortress you'll usually get 50-60 dwarves before long.  DF can get away with having a ton of skills and a super-complex production chain because you have more bodies to throw at it.  RimWorld isn't there yet.  If I need three doctors to perform the full range of medical functions and I only have eight colonists, that means it's almost inevitable that somewhere is going to get short-shrift.

I'd rather see some development thrown into the underwhelming skills like Social, Art, or Research, or refinement of systems like Growing and Animals, before I'd want to see skills start to get subdivided and split up for the sake of having more things to do.

[SpaceDorf]

Not more things to do, but more control over the priority.

The same granularity as in dwarf fortress is still there, it is just not controllable.
In DF nearly every Job is directly mapped to a worktype. But you cant order dwarves directly .. also RW has Therapist built in ..

Construction for Instance. Remove Floor, Repair, Build Wall, Deconstruct Wall, Smooth Floor

are 2 DF Jobs inside there from the beginning. Masonry and Engraving.
Since Construction is also used to build furniture from stuff we have Carpentry, Blacksmithing and again Masonry in there, also Glassmaking, Mechanic and any other Material touched.

you see the trend. The difference is that DF uses Materials as Basis of a Job, while RW uses the Outcome.

Lets have some !!FUN!! and throw the can of worms that is the crafting skill.

DF has over 5 categories for crafting jobs alone .. each include about 2-5 different kind of works .. that are over 20 possible things a pawn can decide upon to do, without any control of the player than to send a pawn to a workstation.

In my eyes that is the point being argued.  Split some Skills for more Pawn diversity, split some job types in the work tab for more control.

Have you ever opened fluffys extended work tab with 30+ colonists ?
You need a real Therapist after that

[Lightzy]

Ideal for what?  winning? 

You have UTTERLY failed to define "ideal" and given the above 3 points, i blablabla blabla

With more unnecessary pawns and more unnecessary resources you have the storyteller abuse you with bigger raids, more problematic events, more disease, more everything bad. You see, it calculates how 'good' you're doing and accordingly punishes you.

Hence 7 pawns covering all skills is ideal for winning, yes. Because you simply don't need any more skills. Could be because some of the skills are simply unnecessary, but yeah. there you go.
I suppose you have 'UTTERLY' failed to understand how the mechanics of the game worked so that's an explanation.



Dorf:
I get what you're saying although I do think it's about the pawn skills, not about the jobs. More pawn skills the better, more diverse, more fun
And yeah the crafting skill (because if you can make a knife you can make a dress and if you can make a dress then you're probably awesome at sniper rifles!!) is a crappy compromise which ended up making the game real bizzare.

[SpaceDorf]

Dorf:
I get what you're saying although I do think it's about the pawn skills, not about the jobs. More pawn skills the better, more diverse, more fun
And yeah the crafting skill (because if you can make a knife you can make a dress and if you can make a dress then you're probably awesome at sniper rifles!!) is a crappy compromise which ended up making the game real bizzare.

Which you learned by smashing rocks ..
You got the point. Thank you.
We want Apples and Oranges .. not compare them

To clarify the difference between Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld even more :

DF - Worktype equals( to most extend ) Skill (ex.: masonry ) which similiar to rimworld effects speed and quality but is also influenced and raises Attributes and likes/dislikes which have no equal in Rimworld.
Worktypes can be disabled or enabled to control what a dorf does. Open Jobs call the fitting worker, there is no control over priority.
Every Dorf is able to do everything.

RW - Skills influence Worktypes through the quality and speed with which they are done. Skill raise directly speed is determined through passion, which has no equal in DF. Pawns are looking for Jobs to be done, you can not only set which works a Pawn should do, but also how important different jobs are. This gives more control than DF.
Not every Pawn can do everything.


---> this is what the thread is actually about :

More Skills make Pawns more diverse in that you get more possible passions and more things a pawn could do or not.
-> this one may require you to have more pawns in your colony because you have more bases to cover.

More Worktypes no matter the skills lets us better finetune what a pawn should do and the importance of the work.
-> this one is independent of the number of pawns, but may get you to do more work with less pawns