Predict the biggest balance issue / exploit in Alpha17

Started by b0rsuk, February 17, 2017, 11:15:57 AM

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b0rsuk

In alpha 16, one of biggest balance issues is smokeleaf joints. It lets one make stupid amount of silver very easily.

What do you think will be the most exploitable new feature / balance issue of Alpha 17 ? Or the next alpha that brings new features ?

carbon

I've never messed with smokeleaf in A16, but if I had to name an exploitable aspect in A16 it would almost certainly be the enemy map teleportation. One can use it to defeat any enemy map with two crippled pawns.


So...I don't see much value in a hypothetical A17 discussion, when we don't even agree on A16.

Trylobyte

#2
I think the biggest balance issue, in an overarching sense, is the same one we have now - Growing as a source of income is far too efficient.  That it's an infinite source of income is fine, but it's how good it is compared to other sources.  Cloth armchairs, simple meals, smokeleaf joints, flake and yayo, beer, wood sculptures, even just growing and selling tons of corn.  Most all of the best moneymaking methods seem to revolve around Growing in some way.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to make money by farming, but that it's not only infinitely sustainable but the flat-out best way to make a ton of money in a short time, is fundamentally broken.

Smokeleaf is the best example (but not the worst offender) in my eyes - You can grow it from the start of the game even as tribals as long as you have a remotely competent grower, harvest it pretty quickly since it grows fast, turn it into joints with 0-skill crafters, then sell it for large amounts of silver to the first caravan that comes by.

b0rsuk

In warm biomes, yes. In winter you pay maintenance cost in power.

A natural way of solving this would be watering plants. This would especially affect warm biomes. In cold biomes, you tend to have lots of snow. We might need a good water system after all...

eadras

Growing could use some balancing tweaks, even disregarding the obvious smokeleaf joint situation.  Crop yields should probably be smaller, and both raw and prepared food should be considerably cheaper, while stacking in larger amounts (75 meals/tile, 500 raw food/tile).  It's a delicate balance, though.

OFWG

Growing is fine as it is, as b0rsuk points out you pick your level of challenge with the biome. Decreasing crop yield will only make it a lot harder to survive the first winter on anything other than year-round growing biomes. New players would suffer, and johnny hardcore will just exploit something else to get too much wealth anyway.
Quote from: sadpickle on August 01, 2018, 05:03:35 PM
I like how they saw the naked guy with no food and said, "what he needs is an SMG."

jpinard

Growing is fine, and adding a watering mechanic could end up being very annoying and tedious depending on how it's implemented.  There's an easy answer for selling exploits and that's just lowering prices for those items one feels are far too out of balance.

But one needs to understand if you want to balance out pricing, then there may need to be a global mmodifer instead.  As mentioned growing enough smokeleaf to make joints in the Arctic might be nearly impossible as you won't be able to grow enough food then.  It's a tricky thing when the world is yoour oyster.

Lys

Quote from: b0rsuk on February 17, 2017, 01:46:06 PMA natural way of solving this would be watering plants
Well either that, or seeds. Personally I'd prefer a seed system where you cant just plant 2000 plants out of thin air.

jpinard

Quote from: Lys on February 17, 2017, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: b0rsuk on February 17, 2017, 01:46:06 PMA natural way of solving this would be watering plants
Well either that, or seeds. Personally I'd prefer a seed system where you cant just plant 2000 plants out of thin air.

The tricky thing there is you're crossing much further into Animal Crossing & Harvest Moon territory.  Not saying that's a bad thing, I mean the realism of it could be fun but Rimworld might start to lose a bit of its unique identity if it starts getting lumped in with those games too closely.

Trylobyte

You could target Growing specifically without changing any major mechanics by, quite simply, rebalancing the prices of grown materials and things made from them.  There should be a big difference in profitability between the rapidly-grown and easily-processed smokeleaf, the research and specialized crafting bench requiring yayo/flake, and something that's really skill, time, and resource intensive like devilstrand.

Grax

I'd propose to return scrolls into trading mechanics, so we can have numbers and scrolls together.

b0rsuk

Quote from: OFWG on February 17, 2017, 03:52:48 PM
Growing is fine as it is, as b0rsuk points out you pick your level of challenge with the biome.

That's not what I said, in fact it's almost the opposite. My second paragraph has suggestions for making growing harder in warmer biomes.

QuoteGrowing is fine, and adding a watering mechanic could end up being very annoying and tedious depending on how it's implemented.

Growers would still work fields, except now instead of a 60x60 field they would work 25x25. Or larger, depending on how many, how numerous your growers are. It could be full auto, just give them access to a well.

QuoteWell either that, or seeds. Personally I'd prefer a seed system where you cant just plant 2000 plants out of thin air.

How would that solve anything ? You would only be limited in early game. In midgame, after first harvest, you would have as much as you like.

Beider

I think growing is fine price wise, but making it a heavier investment would be cool. If you had to take water into account so that you can't easily grow in dry biomes that might be good. That way you can't just plant a massive field that you won't be able to maintain. In addition I think we need more events that can ruin you in the endgame. As it is you get to a point where you pretty much can't lose unless you give yourself an extreme handicap (like no perimeter walls and no turrets).

For instance you could have something like interstellar war which just means trade ships won't arrive for years. Or trade partners turning hostile because of misunderstandings or market crashes that tanks all prices. In addition there obviously also need to be more events that can hurt an established colony, the problem is just making it fun and not totally imbalanced.

Personally I feel stuff like infestations and ships (poison/psychic) dropping are mostly just a chore eventually since you know you can clear it easy, it just takes minor preparation and micro management.

Lys

Quote from: b0rsuk on February 19, 2017, 04:43:38 AM
QuoteWell either that, or seeds. Personally I'd prefer a seed system where you cant just plant 2000 plants out of thin air.

How would that solve anything ? You would only be limited in early game. In midgame, after first harvest, you would have as much as you like.
Well, not completely. For one, why would you get an infinite number of seeds from your first harvest? Though in general, yes you should be able to gradually grow more, you will not be able to plant 100 plants from harvesting 1.
In fact, depending on the plant, you might even have to see how you want to utilize it. I.e., do I want to eat this potatoe, or replant it? Do I eat this corn cob, or do I get the seeds out of it? (Consider that the corn we have in real life has been bred/genetically engineered for high yield, which might not available on a rimworld)
Or, for smokeleaf, do I want to make joints out of this bud or do I want the stuff full with seeds?

And additionally to that, you would have to take more care of your fields.
A raider just set your whole freshly planted farm on fire? Right now: no problem, just replant it.
My dumb colonists planting new plants just before winter begins? Right now: no problem, didn't invest anything except a bit of work.
A solar flare destroyed the plants in my hydro basins? Right now: no problem, just start growing again when it ends...

Lubricus

Quote from: Lys on February 17, 2017, 07:14:10 PM
Quote from: b0rsuk on February 17, 2017, 01:46:06 PMA natural way of solving this would be watering plants
Well either that, or seeds. Personally I'd prefer a seed system where you cant just plant 2000 plants out of thin air.
I am playing with the seeds please mod in my latest colony. It's quite fun and challenging so it works.