[A17] VE-CO. Vanilla Friendly Combat Overhaul - Updated to A17

Started by Aristocat, February 25, 2017, 04:18:56 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Aristocat

#45
Quote from: Madman666 on March 04, 2017, 05:20:56 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
I don't think it would really cause incompatibilities. You might need copy installing exoskeleton.xml and add new torsoes but I think that would be it. This mod change coverage but it works perfectly fine with EPOE for instance. It might be incompatible with save though, because new bodies.


Well, then we should post this idea to EPOE's author to see if he's willing to implement something like that. By the way - if you wanna increase the amount of people playtesting your mods - I suggest Steam Workshop if you have access.

I don't think Ykara will implant something like this, it's kind of too big overhaul.


Adding new body parts for some reason just didn't worked. I thought this would be cakewalk but honestly not sure what did I do wrong.

I instead replaced clavicle and pelvis with upper torso and lower torso, which both inside torso, and high chance to hit when attack hit torso. So basically, in vanilla if you get hit in torso you suffer 100% blood loss. With divided you suffer 30% from torso itself and 100% from either upper or lower torso. So when you replace either upper or lower you only suffer 30% from torso... Not sure if this will work as exactly intended though.

http://i.imgur.com/H4PuQIa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vOXGLsI.jpg
I didn't add exoskeleton recipe yet, so it's arms instead.


The problem would be whether it's balanced or not. Also although they are torso they when destroyed they don't immediately kill pawn. Lower torso will paralyze(down) pawn while upper torso will remove manipulation. Another problem I encountered was bodies.XML seems can't use painfactor, although I admit I didn't even tried it.

I think I should have made "new torsos" outside of "original torso", but I'm not sure how do I do it.

Another way is just not replace either of it and increase hit chance of organs more and decrease bleeding amount of torso. Since torso injury that didn't hit organs probably weren't that significant injury it's kind of realistic. It should also followed by increased hp of organs as otherwise organs will destroyed in practically every battle. This is also much easier way.

Madman666

#46
Yep, I expected something like that. RW's bodypart and combat damage system is so amazingly complex! That was what initially drew me in this game. Unfortunately while being interesting, it also introduces unforseen problems, when it comes to adding or drastically changing this system... Oh, well.

As for balance, pawns should definitely die if their pseudo-torso is destroyed its already made unbleeding and painless which is a massive boost to a person survivability, as you can pull them away in time even if heavily injured, while you'll need to carry fleshy pawn with a second one. Otherwise it'll already be closer to artificial "Arni" than to a living colonist. Complete robot could be good, but thats another theme alltogether.

Aristocat

#47
Quote from: Madman666 on March 04, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
Yep, I expected something like that. RW's bodypart and combat damage system is so amazingly complex! That was what initially drew me in this game. Unfortunately while being interesting, it also introduces unforseen problems, when it comes to adding or drastically changing this system... Oh, well.

As for balance, pawns should definitely die if their pseudo-torso is destroyed its already made unbleeding and painless which is a massive boost to a person survivability, as you can pull them away in time even if heavily injured, while you'll need to carry fleshy pawn with a second one. Otherwise it'll already be closer to artificial "Arni" than to a living colonist. Complete robot could be good, but thats another theme alltogether.

It seems not possible to make new torsos lethal without making other organs non-lethal because pawn dies when one of the activities reaches zero but all activities are already used.

I played the game a bit more with VE-CO and I think they are already pretty strong if you get them bionics so I want to focus on difference things; make game more quality over quantity. Planned features so far :

Quality Weapons : Quality of weapon increase or decrease cooldown based on quality. Make quality more significant on accuracy and melee damage - done
Quality tools and Military Equipments : "Accessory" tools and military equipment for colonists. I.e. gloves and boots to decrease aim time and increase move speed. Tools that increase work speed. Quality of equipment decrease or increase tool's effectiveness
Healthy : Eating healthy meals make pawn more stable and diligent. Make colonist move, learn, recover from wound faster while decreases mental break threshold. Not sure how exactly this should be done. Maybe add some sort of vitamins? Wouldn't that be too complicated?

Another one : Craftable personal shield and modded personal shield that regenerate extremely slowly but has 5 times health.

---

Vanilla bleeding version has been released for VE-CO.

Derp

#48
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
Quote from: Derp on March 03, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
Quote from: Aristocat on March 03, 2017, 01:45:53 AM
What does this mod lacks? Or is it the state of perfection? Did anyone even played it? It's updated 2 days ago btw, or was it 3.
I have not played it.  The increased pain sounds very promising*, but bleeding out is already too much of a problem, considering that A) doctors don't factor it in when prioritizing wounds to treat, B) there's no quick way to treat downed enemies, and C) even if there were, the "innocent prisoner died/patient died in my care" morale loss is considerable and long lasting.

*BTW, would it be possible to mod in increased pain for untreated wounds, roughly-vanilla pain for bandaged wounds, and greatly reduced pain for permanent injuries?  Scars and old gunshots have the opposite problem, in that they can be quite debilitating for no good reason at all.

I think problem with not increasing bleeding is that this mod already decrease difficulty considerably. I'm 3 years in and not even single colonist died from torso destruction because all of them downed before that happens, and without bleeding, pawns will be practically invincible. Though, I felt thrice bleeding really went too much and I will consider release no increased bleeding version as well.

This mod doesn't increase pain from scars but I can reduce them further.

I needed to increase the rate of downing for a scenario (medieval lord and a bunch of serfs. Whiny little snowflakes keep berserking just because they don't have rooms or furniture or cooked food or joy time) so I tried this mod out anyway (the lite version, with the addons), and I gotta admit that you're right, it works well.  I've had a few enemies bleed out before I could get to them, but on the whole the 2/3 chance to drop dead when downed is a bigger killer of pawns I want to keep. 

I think that even with the doubling, bleeding is less of an issue than in vanilla. Pawns now drop after two or three shots, so the common situation where a pawn bleeds out from a severed limb while the doctor treats their dozens of tiny bulletholes first is much less likely to happen.  If you can get them to a bed and a doctor with an hour or so to spare, they'll probably make it, whereas anything less than five is often terminal in vanilla.

Scar pain is still annoying though.  Are you sure you didn't increase it?  My scribe spawned with a minor scar that gives her enough pain for a mostly permanent -10 mood.  I have to coddle her almost at much as my lord just to keep her functioning.  A scar reduction would be a big help, since you're fiddling with pain values as it is and everyone agrees that it's a problem.

Madman666

Its just that with increased pain factor for wounds types (cut, shot, bruise, crack etc.), it probably is increased for scars as well (because scars and old gunshots are considered wound type by the game, just non treatable and they usually cause as much pain as they were causeing the moment they got "old" and thus unhealable). In vanilla RW as I noticed scars actually can be really minor (in terms of damage to a limb) and still can be just on a border of causing constant -10 mood. Pain modifier increase easily pushes even scratches to -10 which can suck atrociously.

Aristocat

#50
Quote from: Derp on March 07, 2017, 01:41:48 PM
I needed to increase the rate of downing for a scenario (medieval lord and a bunch of serfs. Whiny little snowflakes keep berserking just because they don't have rooms or furniture or cooked food or joy time) so I tried this mod out anyway (the lite version, with the addons), and I gotta admit that you're right, it works well.  I've had a few enemies bleed out before I could get to them, but on the whole the 2/3 chance to drop dead when downed is a bigger killer of pawns I want to keep. 

I think that even with the doubling, bleeding is less of an issue than in vanilla. Pawns now drop after two or three shots, so the common situation where a pawn bleeds out from a severed limb while the doctor treats their dozens of tiny bulletholes first is much less likely to happen.  If you can get them to a bed and a doctor with an hour or so to spare, they'll probably make it, whereas anything less than five is often terminal in vanilla.

Scar pain is still annoying though.  Are you sure you didn't increase it?  My scribe spawned with a minor scar that gives her enough pain for a mostly permanent -10 mood.  I have to coddle her almost at much as my lord just to keep her functioning.  A scar reduction would be a big help, since you're fiddling with pain values as it is and everyone agrees that it's a problem.

Glad you liked the mod.

For scars though I'm pretty sure I didn't increased it.

Scars
http://imgur.com/dTvqJzV.jpg

Permanent injury
http://i.imgur.com/BJJPDrK.jpg


<Override.Def Type="HediffDef" Target="Gunshot">
<injuryProps Mode="Replace">     
      <bleedRate>0.12</bleedRate>
      <painPerSeverity>0.025</painPerSeverity>
      <averagePainPerSeverityOld>0.00625</averagePainPerSeverityOld>
<canMerge>false</canMerge>
<destroyedLabel>Shot off</destroyedLabel>
<destroyedOutLabel>Shot out</destroyedOutLabel>
</injuryProps>
</Override.Def>


<averagePainPerSeverityOld> Is pain scars cause. So if you have 5 damage scar it causes 3% pain.

I think the problem is not that scars cause pain but it causes too high damage on body and permanent mood debuff.

I'm making a mod that reduce mood debuff durations and pain debuff. So little pain cause 0 mood loss while - 10 become - 2.

It also looks like scars don't cause much pain but Permanent Injury isn't considered scar and cause extreme pain, which is kind of realistic I suppose, but I will try to fix it although I'm not sure it's even possibly fixed it if it doesn't even considered scar.

If you have trouble with berserks you can try psychology mod.

Quote- Berserk (extreme): The same mental break you know and love, but its frequency is greatly reduced. Bloodlust pawns now have the greatest chance to go berserk, followed by psychopaths, then brawlers. (idea credit twoski)
- Sadism (extreme): The pawn will go after the colony's prisoners and pets, as well as wild animals, and brutalize them. Psychopaths have the greatest chance to become sadistic, followed by bloodlust pawns, then brawlers. (idea credit twoski)
- Self-harm (extreme): The pawn will cut their hands and arms and hide in their room. Masochists have the greatest chance to self-harm. (idea credit twoski)
- Tantrum (extreme): The pawn will destroy nearby furniture and buildings. (idea credit twoski)

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=24648.0

If you have trouble with scars and permanent injuries you might want to get DEsurgeries mod for scar removal although that take quite research.

Aristocat

Updated to A17!

"I couldn't play without this mod!!"... Anyone?... Noone? Well...

Famous Shoes

Sorry, I'm a little confused by the description and the file options. The description talks about 200%, 100%, and 0% "times" bleeding. The file downloads are 300%, 200%, and vanilla. I think I'm reading the three options are: vanilla bleeding speed * 3, vanilla * 2, and vanilla, and that the vanilla * 2 is recommended for A17?

*If* I've got that correct, then maybe the descriptions and files could be either 300% bleeding, 200% bleeding, and vanilla bleeding, or bleeding x 3.0, bleeding x 2.0, and vanilla bleeding.

Not big deal and I'm only commenting because I love the idea of a lightweight combat mod to fix the horrendous vanilla combat experience without bundling laser beams and cat people at the same time. Thank you for making it!

Aristocat

Quote from: Famous Shoes on May 31, 2017, 02:12:32 PM
Sorry, I'm a little confused by the description and the file options. The description talks about 200%, 100%, and 0% "times" bleeding. The file downloads are 300%, 200%, and vanilla. I think I'm reading the three options are: vanilla bleeding speed * 3, vanilla * 2, and vanilla, and that the vanilla * 2 is recommended for A17?

*If* I've got that correct, then maybe the descriptions and files could be either 300% bleeding, 200% bleeding, and vanilla bleeding, or bleeding x 3.0, bleeding x 2.0, and vanilla bleeding.

Not big deal and I'm only commenting because I love the idea of a lightweight combat mod to fix the horrendous vanilla combat experience without bundling laser beams and cat people at the same time. Thank you for making it!

Are these less confusing? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Originally it was "three times more", but doesn't that sounded like +300%, total 400%?

Quote- Injuries cause bleeding + 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe. Total 300%/200%/100%(Vanilla).

- Punctured organs now cause 200%/100%/0%(No change) more severe bleeding. (In vanilla, punctured kidney, lungs and liver etc doesn't cause additional blood loss, only heart and neck does.)

- Less bleeding and vanilla bleeding versions are also available. I recommend 200% or vanilla version as A17 made bleed recover slower and 300% version gets quite hardcore.

Napple


Aristocat

Quote from: Napple on May 31, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Is there any compatibility with Rah's Surgery mod?

Does that mod change rib to rib 1, 2, etc? If so you should use EPOE compatible version.

Famous Shoes

Quote from: Aristocat on May 31, 2017, 03:30:52 PM
Are these less confusing? Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. Originally it was "three times more", but doesn't that sounded like +300%, total 400%?
Quote

I think consistency is all that is important and all I'd need to decide which file I want to download. I was only confused by the two different number sets used, where one set went from 300% to 100% and the other from 200% to 0%.

If you're also interested in the English around this sort of thing: "300% bleeding", "bleeding: 300%", "bleed rate: 300%", "3x bleeding" or "bleeding: 3x" are some common English structures for bleedRate * 3.0f, while including the word "times" and a percent sign as in "300% times bleeding" could be confusing as it literally means (3.0f * bleedRate) * bleedRate. 0% would usually be understood to mean bleedRate * 0.0f. Also note that "400%" and "+300%" would be understood to be the same thing, but "400%" is the more commonly seen construction, except in the case of discounted items for sale, in which case you will most often see "15% off" or "discounted by 15%", which means value - (value * 0.15f).

zarathustra_bezbozhnik

Hello!
Mod looks like the one I was looking for with no incompatibilities and a bit more realism but not too much complication. And great discussion: 've read everything and got all the answers about not being able to transport all the injured in time and bleeding out.

Completely agree about field treating/infusions or some mechanic that will add an option of the temporary treatment, which, btw, is needed not solely in combat. 

So I think 200% is an appropriate option. Will try it and get back to you. Thanks a lot for your work!

beeeboop

Sounds awesome. Will playtest soon. Looking forward to the animal update. ALSO, great job setting up the downloads. It's so easy to quickly install your mods!

GRxGrizzly

Waiting here, twiddling my thumbs patiently until this updates. Why? I can't play without it. It's important to me. @.@