Children & Ethics (split from DRM in mods)

[Yonan]

Regarding the current discussion: I'm all for discussion of an idea & its merits/consequences.  But please be aware of the slippery slope we're on here.

An essential part of a healthy society is to be freely able to discuss ideas so we can decide what is best so being willing to discuss it as you are is great, though sadly rarer than it should be.  Although a mod thread probably isn't really the place for an in-depth discussion I guess hahaha.

@Yonan,
That's a really disturbing article, and it flies in the face of known & accepted psychology, but thanks for sharing it.  I didn't know people thought that was a thing.  Why do I say it flies in the face of known psychology?  Well, take anger for instance.  There was a long time when it was generally believed that "venting" was healthy and decreased the likelihood anger-related health & relationship problems.  Now, we know that people who habitually "vent" their anger are the most angry people and they have the most anger-related problems.

It might depend on what "venting" is, but it's regularly be shown that while playing violent video games increases short term (as in minutes) aggression, that's likely because all competition does the same thing.  IIRC it definitely hasn't been shown to increase medium or long term likelihood of aggression, though I can't remember if it's shown long term decreases in it.

The article was just the first one that came up in google for something I've read about in the past.  I'm not a psychologist or even well read on the topic, but I wish it was researched more thoroughly and discussed openly as readily as some here seem willing to do.

While the act of using pornography has very few catastrophic SHORT TERM  effects on the user, the chain of events from it is often much worse. Say its made legal. This opens a market for it. Market for it means demand. Demand means monetary motivation.

Yeah I'm defiitely not suggesting legalization or decriminalization of child porn.  However criminilization of *drawings* of it such as Hentai (I'm pretty sure it's illegal in Australia for example) removes a harmless possible outlet which might (some research seems to suggest) help reduce real world harm.  But incentivising creation of real CP is definitely a no-no ofc.  Which is why this thread is relevant to me - if someone can get their "power kick" in a game instead of in real life, I'd find that much preferable.  So long as it doesn't encourage escalation - which I'm not convinced it does over the opposite, a reduction in real world impact.


But we're probably too far off course from what is mainly a discussion on ethical modding practice.  I just thought the unethical modding practice might not have had the desired outcome - if that was their goal rather than just trolling.

[milon]

I should clarify - I was posting from my phone and it was easier to tag Yonan's name to indicate what I was replying to rather than try to quote a segment. But my response really wasn't directed *at* Yonan, beyond thanking him/her for the relevant article (even if I disliked it).



Also, I agree that this is off topic enough.  Thread has been split & moved.

[mumblemumble]

I can see where you come from yohan, and I think the law setup really should be altered from issues of mental health : Its often counter productive, and perhaps seperating the judicial system into a judicial system AND a public mental health approach would be better.

Because its a delicate balance of preventing harm, and not CREATING harm

On one hand, yes, the usage of drawn images is victimless, and so, at the gate, a full on punishment like sex offender registry or what have you would CREATE more harm than that which is there to begin with

HOWEVER : it pays to look at what harm CAN be created

now some might argue that you cannot treat someone bad because something is a possibility : But then using this logic (Because we MUST have consistency) you cannot justify arresting drunk drivers.

How it really pays to consider something is weighing how catastrophic the risked effect is (drunk driving crash, raping a child, ect) with the possibility of it.

This is not easy, and it certainly has guess work : going based on what is reported for rates, going based on perceived knowledge, but its the best to go on.

Going back to drunk driving, yes, one could argue maybe 9/10 drunk drivers do not kill anyone. However, 1/10 do, and drunk driving is very common, and DEATH is VERY severe, and preventable. Thus, using this metric, it is good to make drunk driving illegal, for the protection of others.

For pornagraphy it is similar : Theres a possibility of someone browsing those types of porn may have such desires grow, and influence real people. This is a risk, and danger to a preteen child especially, from being assaulted is catastrophic. HOWEVER, jailing a man for having a picture show up on his computer, or curiously browsing such things, is also catastrophic.

So what would be a good solution?

Court ordered intervention, perhaps

See, criminal issues are often mental health issues, and law has become very ineffective at PREVENTING issues, or addressing mental health. I think that for many borderline situations like these, intervention of mental health may be a more applicable approach : Taking time to sit down with the person, and let them know the possible ramifications, and where their mind goes with it, as well as trying to make changes in thought patterns

Maybe I'm not correct on how to approach this : its a delicate matter, but I realize protecting children is a huge priority, while at the same time, current approaches can sometimes do more damage than help.

I do think there are times where children should be punished, mind : Theres too many cases of young women using sexuality on men and then using their age as a trap card : And this to me demonstrates they are not innocent, and were aware of what they are doing with sex. Somethings, THIS ITSELF, is mental health issues, arising from prior sexual abuse, or otherwise, and THIS should be treated, rather than "did x break x law". Because this mentality in young girls ITSELF is destructive and damaging, and can often put men in position TO break the law.

Sure, laws work for many things very well, but treatment of mental issues would not only be a good treatment for events like this, but would be a much more effective pre-emptive measure

Lastly, there might be a question of "what is worth dealing with for mental health?"

Well, should be rising in priority, with the likelyhood of a problem, to the risk of severity, using OBJECTIVE thinking. Something like porn, as much as I detest it, is very low in risk if theres no immediate victims, and thus, is low priority. Someone whos skitzo, violent, and does not see reality, they are much higher risk, higher priority, and its more reasonable to suppress rights

I also think we should be aware when a mental health problem has gone away : Too many people figure "once xyz, always xyz" which is the core of the stigma problem imo. I do think, for instance, someone could be diagnosed with skitzophrenia, and have symptoms go away, WITHOUT medications, and thus, should be free from stigma on prior diagnosis.

....people often say "theres no cure" for xyz : and this means there nothing which is done with 100% reliability which removes it... but this doesn't mean it cannot be removed 

Sorry for going off topic AGAIN with some of that, milon, especially after a split and move, but I hope you can forgive it, with all the input involved

[Dragoon]

Regarding the original topic: I'm against modders including DRM content in their mods. The EULA prohibits it anyway, from my reading.

On to the original topic. If the EULA prohibits it what Thirite is doing. What happens now?

[Thirite]

What I coded was not DRM. DRM is code to prevent unwanted copy protection. What I made was intentional incompatibly. I've been informed the developers agree that my silly code is not against any rules as long as I clearly state what it does. Whenever I get around to updating the mod it won't be in there anyways.

[milon]

The original topic is the place to discuss DRM & related issues:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=30938.0

I've also edited the link into the OP of this thread.