Colonists continuing to fire after "Allow Firing" toggled off [ctd.]

[The Man with No Name]

A place for further discussion on the subject of this thread:

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=32037.0

[ymc]

It should be noted that in the latest build, they've already implemented your suggestion. See attached pic.

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

[The Man with No Name]

My suggestion wasn't for a change of wording on the "Allow firing" toggle, and I have no real opinion on that. Aside from different words used, have any changes been made to how things actually operate? It doesn't look like it from the screenshot - it looks like its just making it more explicitly clear that the "Fire at will" toggle only applies to automatically-targeting shooters. There is no mention of manually-targeting shooters and so, presumably, it's the same as before and that when a player orders a manual shooter to cease firing they will continue to fire regardless.

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EDIT: Actually, the wording of "Fire at will" kind of makes things yet more obtuse, because what is really needed is a toggle that controls whether a colonist should be firing or not, something that should be decided by the human player and which should apply to both manual and automatic shooters. "Allow firing" would be an accurate description of such a toggle, were the game to introduce one.

"Fire at will" has the connotation that the shooter has been delegated authority over his/her own firing - "fire at will" is at the shooters' will. It's thus a much closer description of an automatically-targeting shooter than a manually-targeting shooter, who by definition, is not "firing at will".

Does "Fire at will" mean that the shooter has been allowed to fire their weapon or that they have been given free will as to who to target (automatic-targeting)?

[ArguedPiano]

What would you like to see then @The Man With No Name?

I personally had no issues with the 'allow firing'. And the 'Fire At Will' is an improvement IMO. I fail to see what the problem is here.

[ymc]

Fire at will causes your pawn to stop automatically acquiring new targets and shooting at them. It removes their free will, and they will stand there and be incapacitated or shot to death before they will return fire. Think of it as an ignore setting setting during draft, they will neither flee nor fight. They will only fire at targets that you, the player, have instructed them to shoot at.

It does NOT prevent the following:

• You, the player, manually ordering them to fire at targets. There is no ghosted "Pawn is restricted from firing" tooltip.
• The pawn from firing at targets that you, the player, manually assigned them. This includes pawns named 'Will'
• The pawn from flailing with their fists when the bear, manhunter hare, or pirate with a limestone club closes the distance.

[The Man with No Name]

What would you like to see then @The Man With No Name?

As described in the other thread:

i) A toggle that controls whether a shooter - any shooter, whether automatically-firing or manually-firing - is allowed to fire their weapon. There are certain times in battles when one wants to stop colonists from firing momentarily, usually because another colonist is in a position where they are in danger of getting shot by friendly fire. So any time the player wanted to stop a particular colonist from firing, they could turn this toggle off. "Allow firing" would be an accurate title for such a toggle, but I am more interested in the underlying mechanism than the precise wording.

Secondly, and this arose from discussion in the other thread, and it seems like a logical conclusion to make the combat interface complete,

ii) A way to switch easily from having a colonist in manually-targeting mode to having him/her in automatic-targeting mode. One can do it easily the other way round, from automatic-firing to manual-firing, by just right-clicking to select the target one wants to shoot at. To go from manual to automatic currently, one has to undraft and redraft the colonist. I think that, generally, a player is more likely to be going from auto to manual targeting, but it would be nice to have the option to go vice versa, partly for completeness' sake, and to have it integrated into the combat user interface.

As I say, it's the first of these two issues that is in greater need of addressing. The second is more a case of it currently being a bit inelegant, in that one is required to undraft and redraft the colonist - it's not a straightforward intuitive route to one's desired outcome.

[ymc]

Ahh, ok, I think I finally understand your point.

You want a "Cease fire!" button.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYV-qYeWPkk&feature=youtu.be&t=95

[The Man with No Name]

You want a "Cease fire!" button.

Basically, but the trouble with the words "Cease fire" are that one is creating a double negative with an on/off toggle. With it toggled off, one is stopping ceasing firing.

[ymc]

Kind of like how when one is forbidding an item it's usable and when they turn forbidden off it's ... prohibited?

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

[ArguedPiano]

So you're asking for basically three buttons?

Fire At Will
Manual Targeting
Cease Fire

In a way the 'Manual Targeting' already does this. The draft - undraft is easy enough as you just have to press R twice.
But that aside would you like to see another button added? A third option to cycle through in the already existing 'Fire At Will'? Another option perhaps?

[The Man with No Name]

So you're asking for basically three buttons?

Fire At Will
Manual Targeting
Cease Fire

Since "Fire at will" and "Cease fire" are the opposite of each other, they would be covered by one on/off toggle. "Allow firing" would be a clear and accurate title for such a button. It would work in the same way as the "Allow firing" button did in the old build for automatically targeting shooters - when the player turned off the "Allow firing" toggle for an auto-shooter, they would stop firing until the "Allow firing" toggle was turned on again.

The problem was that there were two systems - if one did the same for a manual-shooter, they would continue to fire even with "Allow firing" toggled off.

I don't know how other people play this game, but when I'm in firefights I often have colonists manually-targeting particular enemies. For example, if a raider has a weapon like a doomsday rocket launcher or if an enemy is charging a colonist, I'll often prioritize shooting at them by using the manually-targeting option. Over the course of a battle, my colonists may switch between these firing states multiple times and, in the chaos of battle and with many colonists to coordinate, I often don't remember exactly which shooters are set to manually-targeting and which are set to auto-targeting.

So, previously, if I wanted to stop colonists firing because they were at risk of shooting a friendly, I would disable the "Allow firing" toggle only to find that the colonists continued to shoot because they were in a manually-targeting firing state. My "suggestion" was that the manual-shooters operated using the same rules as auto-shooters, so if one disabled the "Allow firing" toggle for a manually-targeting shooter, they would stop firing in the same way that an auto-shooter would.

A second toggle relating to automatic/manual shooting would also be useful, as much as an indicator as a toggle. A player would be able to clearly see whether a colonist is in automatically-targeting mode or manual-targeting mode. One can currently look at a colonist's state to get an idea - if the colonist is in auto-targeting it should say "Watching for targets" and if in manual-targeting, it will say "Firing at ...". I don't think this makes things clear enough, though, especially for new players - if it says "Firing at...", it is not explicitly clear that the colonist is firing at that target while under auto-control or manual-control, just that the colonist is firing at that target. A toggle indicator with a green tick or red cross would make it clear and unambiguous. As well as its function as an indicator, this toggle would also be a way for the player to change from manual to auto-targeting by clicking it.

[The Man with No Name]

Kind of like how when one is forbidding an item it's usable and when they turn forbidden off it's ... prohibited?

"This item is not disallowed" would be a closer comparison.

[The Man with No Name]

There's another major flaw with the current combat system which I've noticed in testing. If a shooter who is manually-targeting downs/kills their target, they will just stand there doing nothing. So if a player selects a target to shoot in a firefight, they will have to be careful to make sure they watch when the target is downed or else their shooter won't be participating any further in the firefight until they are given a new order.

The logical mechanism would be for shooters to go back into automatic-targeting once they no longer have a manual target. I haven't been able to come up with a situation where a player would only want to fire at one designated hostile target and then have the shooter standing awaiting orders upon that task's conclusion. The reverse scenario - wanting a manual-shooter to fire at another hostile target after downing their target - happens every single instance I have a colonist manually-targeting in a firefight.

So, again, the game's firing system reveals itself to be inchoate, deficient and in need of further logical refinement.

[ymc]

If that's the system you want them to follow, you don't even need to have them drafted. Just play with their fight, flee, and ignore settings in regular autopilot mode.

[ArguedPiano]

The logical mechanism would be for shooters to go back into automatic-targeting once they no longer have a manual target. I haven't been able to come up with a situation where a player would only want to fire at one designated hostile target and then have the shooter standing awaiting orders upon that task's conclusion. The reverse scenario - wanting a manual-shooter to fire at another hostile target after downing their target - happens every single instance I have a colonist manually-targeting in a firefight.

Then what's the point of having manual targeting at all? If what you want is for your pawn to keep firing after downing their target then just keep them on auto fire and force select their targets for them. (Left click pawn, right click target, select 'Fire at...')

I can think of plenty of scenarios where you would not want this to happen. One such being:
You have your sniper shooting at another sniper, at the same time you have three pawns engaged in melee with two enemies. Enemy sniper is killed. Would you then want your sniper to turn and shoot at the group of meleeing pawns? No. You'd run the risk of hitting your own pawns.

You keep bringing this up like it's a major issue that makes the game unplayable. The allow firing toggle was a great improvement for sure. But I'm afraid I don't share with you these 'gameplay issues' that you keep experiencing.