Human traffick debate

[ArguedPiano]

I wonder, why people get so emotional about anything being close to rape, while nobody gives a second look to things like harvesting organs?

The reason rape gets people so much more emotional that murder or organ harvesting is because it happens much, MUCH more frequently. It hits home to so many people. It brings back terrible and painful memories of things that should never have happened.

• Worldwide, it is estimated that 1 in 3 women (1.17 Billion) will experience sexual assault in their lifetime.
• Worldwide, 700 million women were forced into marriage before the age of 18.
• 250 million of those women were married before the age of 15.
• About 1 in 10 women worldwide (120 million) will experience forced intercouse or other sexual acts in their lifetime.

Source. (Which also lists their own sources)


And incase you needed more statistics here is a link for Victims of Sexual Violence: Statistics in America, which they state (among other statistics):

• On average, there are 321,500 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States.
• As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.
• 94% of women who are raped experience post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms during the two weeks following the rape.
• Approximately 70% of rape or sexual assault victims experience moderate to severe distress, a larger percentage than for any other violent crime.

The point here is there should be a definite line on what is acceptable and what is not. The fact that rape and sexual assault it STILL a major problem in today's world, a problem that affects 1/3rd of ALL women. Having a mechanic in game that resonates badly with so many people is a terrible idea.

[mumblemumble]

Sorry, but the 1 in 3, as far as I remember : didn't this literally include unwanted hugging, kisses on the cheek? Its important to examine WHAT is being measured as "sexual and physical violence", because frankly, SOME things which fit that label are horrific, and some are pretty much none issues. Infact, I looked through several links, and they NEVER define these as far as I can see : but I recall the 1 in 3 being mentioned, and yes, back then it WAS any sexual contact without consent, including kisses which were rejected, which are NOT comparable to RAPE. I'm unashamed to say this : a kiss on the cheek is NOTHING, compared the rape, period.

This is why I care very much about definitions : these kind of studies can lead people to believe 1 out of 3 women are RAPED, sexually penetrated without consent, which is NOT the case. Besides this, the one of "1 in 10 experience forced intercourse OR other sexual acts", is not at all an accurate representation of rape, because of the "Or other". Its like if I make a study about people being shot, as well as punched, trying to say guns aren't dangerous : but the fact I include punches skews the study ; of course punches happen FAR more, and are FAR less lethal : and this skews the study when I gauge it towards guns.

How about this : I'm confident 1 in 2 of men experience extreme violence and mutilation (which includes any acts of violence). See how rediculous this is?... Because being stabbed and being slapped across the face is not comparable.

You might say I have no study, and its true : but ask yourself, would you really be hard pressed to find half of all men had been hit or slapped at some point in their life?

Now I WILL say, yes, you actually correct on the rape / murder rate difference.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/latest-crime-statistics-released

However assault is something which happens far more, and is permitted in rimworld, I guess.

Pretty much the only things in your statistics that I think isn't dubious is the PTSD statistic, and distress over rape : rape is extremely traumatic and psychologically damaging, but pretty much all other things need further reading into : forced marriages for instance should be looked at on a cultural level, rather than "global" level, to figure out where its a problem (but this wouldn't be PC). Infact, if your going to look at ANY information, you should compare global with regional amounts : I think the 1/3 does not remain the same for all areas, and not in the first world. Besides that, these "rape AND xyz" things aren't helpful : they do not show the effects for either rape, OR "sexual assault" because they are blurred together : what if rates for things involved with rape and "sexual assault" are radically different? we won't know with this, as it refuses to distinguish.

If it makes you feel better, I do think a woman being in sexual slavery in rim-world should have dire emotional effects, to reflect reality.

...and I know this is off topic, but statistics are next to useless if the definitions are THAT vague. OR, if you use them, you MUST acknowlege JUST how vague it is. So yes, 1 in 3 women experience ANYTHING from an unwanted kiss on the cheek, to full on rape. I acknowlege this. That said, I care more about the rape rate, than the kisses on the cheek, or odd groping by a lover which is politely rejected.

And if you can indeed cite EXACTLY what they mean by sexual assault, please do.

[Perq]

Requesting that this thread get locked and buried. Nobody is saying anything new, and it's just going around in a circle resorting to name calling.

[...]
And some do not:

• "because vagina"
• Slavery isn't profitable enough and I want 5000 silver
• Well you can do x and x is bad so why not this? I wanna do this and who are you to tell me how to play
• Do it for the controversy! Do it for the lols!

They do not bring anything to the table because this guy said so. So yeah guys, time to lock this thread. This guy here though for all of us here, no need to take it any further.

Seriously, you can't just go to any thread you want and judge whenever something is adding to the topic or not. Funnily enough you claim that people are going around in circles posting useless stuff, yet all you've done with you post is claiming to have higher ground without explaining anything. Aka, useless post.

I wonder, why people get so emotional about anything being close to rape, while nobody gives a second look to things like harvesting organs?

The reason rape gets people so much more emotional that murder or organ harvesting is because it happens much, MUCH more frequently. It hits home to so many people. It brings back terrible and painful memories of things that should never have happened.

• Worldwide, it is estimated that 1 in 3 women (1.17 Billion) will experience sexual assault in their lifetime.
• Worldwide, 700 million women were forced into marriage before the age of 18.
• 250 million of those women were married before the age of 15.
• About 1 in 10 women worldwide (120 million) will experience forced intercouse or other sexual acts in their lifetime.

Source. (Which also lists their own sources)


And incase you needed more statistics here is a link for Victims of Sexual Violence: Statistics in America, which they state (among other statistics):

• On average, there are 321,500 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States.
• As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.
• 94% of women who are raped experience post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms during the two weeks following the rape.
• Approximately 70% of rape or sexual assault victims experience moderate to severe distress, a larger percentage than for any other violent crime.

The point here is there should be a definite line on what is acceptable and what is not. The fact that rape and sexual assault it STILL a major problem in today's world, a problem that affects 1/3rd of ALL women. Having a mechanic in game that resonates badly with so many people is a terrible idea.

Ok, I've very sorry for what I'm going to say now but this is a video game and quite frankly we don't care. If you experienced some traumatic things like rape, I'm very sorry that you did, but at the same time don't expect the whole world will now cater to your needs.

Why would you want to play a game about drama, which includes killing people (and possibly rape), if you claim to be sensitive in those aspects? Wouldn't you want to AVOID such things? There are plenty of movies that include rape scenes. Where is the outrage?

I mean, to me it is like going to hotdog stall and being outraged that they have no vegetarian food (or that they serve meat at all).

In a way, ymc is right about thread going in circles. People seem to completely ignore the gameplay aspects about this suggestion and tend to go into political correctness and emotional think of the children. Sooo, yeah, pretty much done with this thread.

[mumblemumble]

YMC, I made those first few points, because you advocated for the LOCKING, of another persons thread, which is a bit uncalled for : as well as silly when your reasoning is that theres no new talk, and you MAKE new talk. It ALMOST looks as if you want to lock a thread after you get your last word...

My argument for homosexual males buying slaves to be homosexual rape toys (presubably) is that 1 : men are more common, and CHEAPER to come by than women, due to the inate factor that women are valued and PROTECTED more than men. Remember the phrase women and children first? Men get the short end of the stick, and would presumably be slaves more. One might argue this changes in the future, but then you must ask if the REASONS for it existing cease to exist. If the reason still exists, some form of the practice will surely stay. So yes, male slaves for sexual purposes would be cheaper I'd think with variables based on attractiveness, and other skills, but on average, cheaper than women, as they are higher demand, and harder to get. For lesbians, I figure they would get the same price as a straight man wanting a sex slave : less they want specific, hard to find variables.

You also say the future may not be patriarchal : Why? even IF men and women having the exact same capability is canon for the universe (which raises infinitely more questions than answers), this does not change the fact that a penis can impregnate many wombs, but a womb cannot be impregnated by several penises at once. This factor is an IMMENSE crux behind a patriarchal society (which is not a bad thing btw), and I could only see this changing if everyone was a tranny...but thats even harder to believe.

Question about slave supply is a good one : someone should check this, I know in reality for labor reasons, males are superior, while females are more common for sex trade, as stated above.

For the points to my quote, ill refute point by point :
-Its not JUST the factor of illegality, its that (you REALLY will not like this, but its true) a slave is also a responsibility. Keeping it fed, cared for, ect...and I doubt a woman JUST seeking good sperm would go through all that responsibility JUST for a mans seed. Beyond that, comparing wild west, Amsterdam, and arranged marraige is silly, as all 3 are radically different : wild west it was common for girls to LITERALLY be sex slaves for profit, no say in the matter, and abducted and raped, for profit. Amsterdam is somewhat better, with lots of checks in balances to hopefully prevent abuses, but they still happen. It also happens in European societies with such a success rate, very few other places. Arranged marriages are entirely different : the person marrying them as stated above, has a RESPONSIBILITY to his wife. Sure, it comes with all the sex they want, but NOT without a huge chunk of responsibility. In short, those 3 things are completely different. But, I could see arranged marriages happening to bolster numbers in tribes. In survival, passing the next generation is more important than individual rights : something which few understand as they have never had to ponder survival.
-Slavery is not abolished : ISIS, India, Morocco, and several other places its still legal : don't think because its gone in the United states in Europe that it doesn't exist, this is an insult to the people who still suffer. Also you state patriarchal society doesn't exist, but slavery does : how in the world is this remotely possible? I would think more fine, and delicate rights, like womens right to vote, being free from patriarchal rule, ect, would come AFTER slaves are put in : yet you talk about a universal removal of the patriarchy?
-The service rendered of a man having sex for money with a woman, and a woman having sex for money with a man, is entirely different : men face less risk, danger, ect. Men do not get pregnant : men are slightly less susceptible to STD's : Men are larger and stronger on average (you can debate this isn't cannon, fine) which means more defensible against abuse when in such an EXTREMELY vulnerable position. A man being paid to have sex is FAR less risky, and is thus, far cheaper. Infact, a ton of men you can easily find all over who would screw a random women for free, and would JUMP at the idea of being paid. Less so for women, with pregnancy risk, at very least : no woman wants to become a single mother, PERIOD.
-women paying men for sex is a social construct : women who are put into positions with financial security ensure this is a possibility, and its only really prevalent with extremely wealthy people, OR, in societies which are highly advanced. You won't encounter women in 3rd world countries ever doing this. I never said men CANNOT get sex for free (rape is a thing, for one, as are sluts), but merely if you look at the defensiveness factors, women are FAR more defensive sexually, while men are more OFFENSIVE. Also, why would a woman purchase a sex slave, if not for sex? you make no sense... Granted, they might be multipurpose, but you never suggested the slave be multipurpose. If a woman purchases a sex slave, for no other reasons than sex, shes doing it for sex.
-If a woman was so concerned about a good child, why in fucks name would she not seek a HEALTHY relationship? healthy marriages are shown to be immense factors in a childs success, and I fail to see this being likely in a slavery setup, particularly when men are typically more dominant, and women are more submissive. It would be a weird setup, and would leave the child very confused, perhaps damaged. Getting a male slave to be a father would be a worse idea than finding a volentary man who likes her on her own merits, if one REALLY cared about a healthy child. And if its JUST sperm, Again, why enslave a man? Why not just arrange a man have his seed extracted, and be on their way? You aren't thinking it through.
-Maybe they aren't : I was going off the study showing lesbians do domestic abuse far more than straights. Maybe its misleading though, I don't know. http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/04/2-studies-prove-domestic-violence-lgbt-issue
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/07/attack-of-the-killer-dykes/

Regardless if its dominant or not, violence is a concern.

Straw man accusation was because you intentionally worded the argument to look dumber than it was : NOBODY made the argument "because vagina". Nobody.

You COMPLETELY missed my point about supply and demand : even if there a 3/2 margin with more females, men are STILL STRONGER over all, and dicks can be used all over for reproduction, while a womb must take 9 months. That 9 month period is the part which makes such HUGE demand. Beyond that, you aren't even examining willingness, risk of participants as factors in "supply" : let me explain : you have a room of 50 women, 50 men : Does this mean you have a supply of 50 men and women to have sex with? NO! Some women are taken, some are lesbians, some will fight you, ect. Same applies to men, except men are more likely to engage in sex attempts than women : remember the code where it says men persue it more? ITS TRUE! And so, the supply of men one could conceivably have sex with, as a woman, is HIGHER, than the amount of women a MAN could have sex with, when you average out for factors in men and women : because more women aren't ok with just spreading their legs for a stranger, while men are more likely to want to screw on a whim : especially when sex is far less dangerous.

-----------

I do agree with perq : frankly with MANY issues, theres problems with issues that many people disagree with on the forum, and anything which involves such disagreements then devolves into off topic debate, and sometimes namecalling, childish games, or worse. Its not helped that many of these topics branch into other topics with ANY significant debate, thus prompting MORE "off topic" discussion. Kinda gets to the point where both parties resent each other, and have no place to calmly debate about it, due to the risk of becoming off topic, regardless of what the topic was.

....Even with the off topic forum this remains an issue.

[vampiresoap]

I wonder, why people get so emotional about anything being close to rape, while nobody gives a second look to things like harvesting organs?

The reason rape gets people so much more emotional that murder or organ harvesting is because it happens much, MUCH more frequently. It hits home to so many people. It brings back terrible and painful memories of things that should never have happened.

• Worldwide, it is estimated that 1 in 3 women (1.17 Billion) will experience sexual assault in their lifetime.
• Worldwide, 700 million women were forced into marriage before the age of 18.
• 250 million of those women were married before the age of 15.
• About 1 in 10 women worldwide (120 million) will experience forced intercouse or other sexual acts in their lifetime.

Source. (Which also lists their own sources)


And incase you needed more statistics here is a link for Victims of Sexual Violence: Statistics in America, which they state (among other statistics):

• On average, there are 321,500 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States.
• As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.
• 94% of women who are raped experience post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms during the two weeks following the rape.
• Approximately 70% of rape or sexual assault victims experience moderate to severe distress, a larger percentage than for any other violent crime.

The point here is there should be a definite line on what is acceptable and what is not. The fact that rape and sexual assault it STILL a major problem in today's world, a problem that affects 1/3rd of ALL women. Having a mechanic in game that resonates badly with so many people is a terrible idea.

You're still siting the rape outcry from a few years back? lol...dude, it's been widely debunked as a myth. FBI's generous stat still gave it like 3 out of 1000...it's nowhere near to 1 in 3...Even if you don't know any statistics...well, can't you use your common sense? 1 in 3 is a ridiculous number...someone has to be VERY detached from reality to believe such bullshit.

[ArguedPiano]

@vampiresoap Source please.

Besides if you read it it says 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

1 in 10 women worldwide experience unwanted sexual intercourse.

Again if this was proved a myth I would love a source so I do not make this mistake again in the future.

[O Negative]

1 in 3 isn't a ridiculous number if you take the time to get to know the women around you; That is, assuming women are willing to talk to you I know plenty of women, including my own mother, who have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime. My spouse's sister was molested and sexually assaulted multiple times in her childhood. Their mother was raped while she was sleeping, and now she can't wake up without going into a panic attack. One of my best friends was raped by her uncle, but I didn't find out until I had already known her for 5 years. She's told me of many of her friends that have gone through similar circumstances, and how they support each other through the rough bouts. The list goes on.

Just because people don't like to talk about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
The reason the prevalence argument holds strong (no matter how much you jerks desperately try to say otherwise) is because things like this hit way too close to home for a lot of people. You're effectively trying to make the argument that the game could successfully include any sick and twisted social phenomenon that exists in real life, because it already has a few.

Stop pretending to be some kind of marketing genius by saying "ALL PUBLICITY IS GOOD PUBLICITY" because you're only proving yourself to be the polar opposite every single time you make that argument. Businesses that get a bad rep don't do well, because people talk about how awful they are. That's why customer service is such a big thing. Businesses need their customers to think they're good!

Sure, there are exceptions. So fucking what!? Providing exceptions, like the few you have, doesn't prove anything! "The exception that proves the rule" is a logical fallacy! Educate yourself.

Straw man accusation was because you intentionally worded the argument to look dumber than it was : NOBODY made the argument "because vagina". Nobody. "Because vagina" is a huge factor in the slave trade.

[A Friend]

I understand why you guys champion for making males and females more defined than just a label. But unless it's a radically large difference, I really doubt it would add any noticeable change or improvement to gameplay. And since you're going more in the realism route, I feel that it's gonna end up more like the latter.

Collectively, all the changes made would be large. But individually, it would be barely noticeable to the average player.
But if the developers think it'd be nice to have and invest some time implementing them then I'd have no qualm with that.

Also here's to betting my predictions are right and this does end up to 10 pages or longer.

[vampiresoap]

Google it or just go check out the FBI's page. Jesus, people, do your own research and not just regurgitate what your liberal professors told you...0.1% of the population right there on the wiki with numerous sources sited, and not just your make believe "social science" stats, either. This comes straight from the police. And like I said, you'd got to be pretty detached to believe in something as ridiculous as 1 in 3...Like either you're living in an extremely shitty part of town, or the women you've talked to all considered one-night-stands to be rape. Furthermore, vast majority of people have never experienced rape or even had it happened to someone close to them. It's a very, very rare occurrence.

You know how they got that number? 1 in 3? If you had known how they did that survey, you'd probably not worship that number so much...For those of you who are reading this on the sideline, google that shit and you'll know the truth for yourself. They basically just called up random people and asked them questions like, "did you ever have sex with someone but regret about it the next day?" If they answer yes, then they'd be considered raped...So yeah...

[O Negative]

There are certainly ways to make a survey yield the results you want it to.
I guess it boils down to what you consider a viable source for information.
I don't consider wiki to be a valuable source of information, regardless of what sources they've cited.

I'll do a quick google, as suggested.
I found:
- http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/global_campaign/en/chap6.pdf (Upwards of 1/3 Adolescent Women)
- https://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf (1/5 women experience rape in lifetime)
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777345/ (Up to 67% of cases of sexual violence possibly unreported)
- https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bjs_amrsa_poster.pdf (2.3 per 1,000 women aged 12 or older from the 1996 NCVS)

These are all sources I've grown to trust in the past, when researching completely different subjects.
As you can probably tell, there's a bit of a contradiction/disagreement between the first 3 and the last source.

Then again, just as the survey thing goes, we can always find a statistic from some source that claims to prove our side of the argument. Always.
For instance, you've made the point that women could count one night stands they've regretted as sexual assault. As a person who's been falsely accused of sexual assault in the past, I can vouch for that argument. Completely viable.
On the other hand, you could narrow your acceptable rape instances down to proven cases for rape, and completely ignore the fact that not all incidences go reported or recorded because there wasn't enough evidence.
No matter how wrong a stat might be, there's bound to be a website out there saying it's legit. The internet is not a great place for obtaining unbiased information, so I can't say that my sources are any more credible than your own.

[mumblemumble]

Its not that I, or others say rape is not a problem in society : it is, but blowing it out of proportion and misrepresenting it does nothing to help anyone.

Also, its important to examine what CAUSES rape in society : sexual frustration, childhood trauma, lacking family, criminal "don't snitch" culture, ect... Some people might not be comfortable admitting causes for rapists, but I could give a rats about comfort or political correctness, over results : I'd rather offend every feminist and SJW on the planet for the end of getting rape to be reduced, than refuse to address issues, at risk of letting rape get worse.

Its how I feel about many things : we need to identify true causes for things if we ever wish to fix them. Doesn't matter if the causes aren't politically correct, or comfortable.

[ArguedPiano]

You know how they got that number? 1 in 3? If you had known how they did that survey, you'd probably not worship that number so much...For those of you who are reading this on the sideline, google that shit and you'll know the truth for yourself. They basically just called up random people and asked them questions like, "did you ever have sex with someone but regret about it the next day?" If they answer yes, then they'd be considered raped...So yeah...

Ok then. How DID they do the survey? You keep refuting these numbers, calling foul but refuse to offer any evidence at all to back up your claims. What proof do you have? How are you to make me believe that you're not just making this up to make your point? I'm a reasonable person. Prove me wrong and I will admit to my mistake.


Looking at the FBI's page (as you had suggested) I could not find ANY information on sexual assault specifically. Which is the 1 in 3 number you keep referring to. But I did find some rape statistics:

• There were an estimated 79,770 rapes (legacy definition) reported to law enforcement in 2013.

What's interesting here is the fact that these are only reported rapes. Also the fact these are statistics strictly from the USA. FBI: UCR - Crime in the United States in 2013


I would like to make note that my original statistics were worldwide stats. Even though USA may be low, many more countries still have incredibly high rates of unreported rapes.

(Quoted from Sexual Violence - Wikipedia):
Sexual violence is a widely underreported phenomenon, therefore available statistics are unlikely to inform about the true scale of the problem. The available data are scanty and fragmented. Police data, for instance, are often incomplete, limited, and may be biased towards the more violent incidents of sexual abuse.

(Quoted from Rape Statistics - Wikipedia):
Rape is a severely under-reported crime with surveys showing dark figures of up to 91.6%.

(Quoted from Sexual Assault Statistics in Canada):

• Of every 100 incidents of sexual assault, only 6 are reported to the police
• 1 - 2% of "date rape" sexual assaults are reported to the police
• 1 in 4 North American women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime

There is a mass underreporting epidemic. Of course if you look at just the reported stats they will be incredibly low. That's what underreporting does.

Please: Prove me wrong! I would love for ALL of this to be untrue. But I will not believe you because it's what you *think* or *feel* is right. Show me evidence for your arguments.

[mumblemumble]

The problem is, sexual assault is not defined : it could include forced sodomy (an attrocity) or an unwanted grope on the dance floor during a dance (sucky, but not anywhere near as bad)

And this is the core of the problem : This is very vague, and you have no idea how much of it is what : it could be train gropings, it could be unwanted kissing, it could be rape itself (because rape IS also sexual assault) or it could be feeling up a girl during a dance : which are all very different, some a scurge to society, some extremely frowned upon, and some just a, frankly, forgivable accident.

Its also important to factor in things such as culture, country, community, race, wealth, and other factors to help find the root causes : Something feminism doesn't do. They tell men not to rape, but often they are talking to men who won't rape anyway : they don't go preach to the gang bangers, the felons, the drug users, the heavily porn addicted, or any people where theres a perceivable risk of higher rape chance. And this is highly ineffective : discrimination in some of these cases is kind of handy, to make efforts more effective. Picture it like cancer : you don't blast the entire body, you blast the cancer with radiation.

Also, when you talk about the dark statistics : is this global? america? first world countries?

If you include all 3rd world countries, thats not surprising, but you cannot lump america and europe in with countries who aren't as advanced.

Even your stats from canada are all over : for instance, it is EXTREMELY rural in a lot of canada, much of it is in the sticks, and these areas are much different than cities. This is a factor.

Its also a factor for "sexual assault", being the word used in the 6/100 statistic. Remember : If I have a date with a girl, try to kiss her good night, and kiss her on the cheek , I have JUST sexually assaulted her, by definition. But her calling the police would make her look like an idiot, because, despite falling under the definition, if I stop when refused, and let her go home, its fine. This is another important thing : part of mating, of dating a girl, is feeling that out : what is, and is not acceptable? Its kind of normal in a relationship for "unwanted" touches to happen regularly here and there, especially at the start, because you do not KNOW what is wanted. The key part for if its moral is 1 : is there a reasonable belief it would be ok? and 2 : did you stop when told to stop? If these 2 things are done, then "sexual assault or not", its not immoral, nor illegal.

Date rape itself is poorly defined, and frankly some forms included are actually LEGAL (such as getting a girl drunk and fucking them) which would make the non reporting a no brainer : you wouldn't report something which ISN'T a crime, would you? So its important to count if it was ACTUALLY illegal (spiking a drink with GHB for instance) or legal (providing several martinis, and having sex). Its not a comfortable topic, but its true : if you drink, YOU are responsible for what happens. Granted, I'm actually against 90% of drinking in GENERAL, because stupid shit happens, but I still think the woman is responsible if she CHOSE to drink. Which is why I say 1 : I refuse to have sex with drunk women, less they are my significant other (because then its understandable), and 2 : women should have this on their mind when they drink. And its not necessarily even JUST on women : men need to be aware too, we do DUMB shit when drunk. I refuse to drink around beautiful women simply because the temptation is exhausting, and I do not want risk. More women MUST think this way, but unfortunately its labeled as victim blaming, even if practicing this would effectively cut "date rape" in half EASY.

The statistic in north america is also misleading : you were JUST speaking of canada, but now include north america : this means canada, america, mexico, cuba, costa rica, dominican republic, jamaca, haiti : JUST TO NAME A FEW!!! And these contries ARE NOT CANADA, and have NOTHING TO DO  WITH CANADA. Infact, mexicos rape / sexual assault rate is probably very DIFFERENT than canada. So THAT part of the statistic is complete crap, having nothing to do with canada.

Anyway, TL;DR:
-Sexual assault includes unwanted kisses on dates, and groping during a dance by definition : neither of which are illegal if theres reasonable belief its permitted, and are not repeated.
-Date rape includes a girl being drunk and regretting sex : which is NOT a crime, is not illegal, and is the girls fault AS WELL as the guys, assuming she voluntarily, and knowingly consumed alcohol, or other substances. Only exception is if she passes out
-When citing statistics you MUST consider WHAT the words they use mean (how vague, how specific) and WHERE they come from (Mexico rape rates are NOT Canada rape rates), in order to have any accurate debate
-When considering something unreported, consider FIRST if a crime was actually committed. I could argue 99.999% of shitposts on the internet (or "cyberviolence") are not reported to the police, and this is TRUE, but this is because 99.999% of shitposts are not ILLEGAL.

[vampiresoap]

Kudos to mods still not getting upset about this and/or shutting this down So open minded compared to so many other forums. For this, you guys have my utmost respects at this point.

Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3hcs_6jYA

Facts, explanations and myth-busting all in one video. Fact check him. Also, I refuse to accept any stat that doesn't come straight from the police. I don't care if they claim that they've been raped. If they never went to the police, that doesn't count at all. Period.

[ArguedPiano]

Thank you for your thought out and organized opinions. I will try my best to reply to them point by point.

The problem is, sexual assault is not defined

Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape.
(Googled definition)

(Or from the Wikipedia page I recently linked): Sexual violence is any sexual act or attempt to obtain a sexual act by violence or coercion, acts to traffic a person or acts directed against a person's sexuality

Something feminism doesn't do. They tell men not to rape, but often they are talking to men who won't rape anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. It can be incredibly irritating to be preached to about something you would never think of committing yourself. Part of the problem is how else do you get the information out there? You need to reach those types of people somehow, and although there are probably better methods, I would like to believe most people are doing the best they know how to do.

Also, when you talk about the dark statistics : is this global? america? first world countries?

Dark figures (I would like to note the word used was figures, not statistics) as defined by the clickable link on the Wikipedia page is:
The dark (or hidden) figure of crime is a term employed by criminologists and sociologists to describe the amount of unreported or undiscovered crime.
This term is not regionally specific.

If I have a date with a girl, try to kiss her good night, and kiss her on the cheek , I have JUST sexually assaulted her, by definition.

IF said kiss (even on the cheek) was unwanted by the recipient, then yes, by definition, you have commited sexuall assault.
It includes (but not limited to) unwanted touching, kissing, and grabbing.

But her calling the police would make her look like an idiot, because, despite falling under the definition, if I stop when refused, and let her go home, its fine...
...The key part for if its moral is 1 : is there a reasonable belief it would be ok? and 2 : did you stop when told to stop? If these 2 things are done, then "sexual assault or not", its not immoral, nor illegal.

Again, yes, I completely agree with you here.

Date rape itself is poorly defined

Date Rape is defined as:
Date rape specifically refers to a rape in which there has been some sort of romantic or potentially sexual relationship between the two parties.

And I should also mention Rape is defined as:
Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent.

if you drink, YOU are responsible for what happens.

This is an entirely different topic. And although I do agree, we could start another tread if you wish to discuss further.

The statistic in north america is also misleading : you were JUST speaking of canada, but now include north america...

You make a good point here.
Even though it clumps in 30+ countries, that number is still staggeringly high.
It is curious though why they chose to report that number when all other stats are given for Canada. I will be more selective with my sources in the future.

-Sexual assault includes unwanted kisses on dates, and groping during a dance by definition : neither of which are illegal if theres reasonable belief its permitted, and are not repeated.

What happens if said experiences happens not by the same person twice, but TO the same person multiple times over a period of Months, Years?
It must be awful to never feel completely safe. Never knowing if some person will grab at you while riding the bus today, just to 'get a feel'. Never knowing if you can go out dancing with your friends without someone trying to put something in your drink, or try to get you alone. Never knowing if you go on a date, even with someone you know, if you will make it home that night.
It's something most women (and even men for that matter) have to live with each and every day. You can never feel comfortable in any situation. You can never relax. You're always looking over your back. Always wondering if today is the day that One Shitty Person decides to ruin your day.
It's an awful way to live. To never feel safe.

-Date rape includes a girl being drunk and regretting sex : which is NOT a crime, is not illegal, and is the girls fault AS WELL as the guys, assuming she voluntarily, and knowingly consumed alcohol, or other substances. Only exception is if she passes out.

Unfortunately this is not included in the definition of date rape.
But I do have to agree with your points. Having consensual sex, then later regretting it is NOT rape, nor is it sexual assault.

-When considering something unreported, consider FIRST if a crime was actually committed.

This is what you would call a grey area, and subject to enormous debate. Is it illegal to touch someone without their consent? What is ok and what is not? Is touching a breast illegal? How about someone's arm or shoulder? What makes someone's genitals any more private and any other part of their body? These are all big topics that will probably continue to be debated on for many years to come.


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What I would like to be taken away from all of this is the following:

I never meant for this to be a direct refutal of the original threads ideas. I was answering directly Perq's question: "I wonder, why people get so emotional about anything being close to rape, while nobody gives a second look to things like harvesting organs?"

My answer is that it is so much more prevalent an issue than anything else you encounter in this game. So many people have experienced rape themselves. So many more people know someone close to them who have experienced it. People get emotional because they see how it has ruined their loved ones lives.

We can argue definitions and statistics all day, but that changes nothing for the people who live with this 'baggage' each and every day.