The many-guns problem

Started by Tynan, October 22, 2013, 12:41:38 AM

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Xanting

I feel that in a game there is a certain amount of abstraction that has to be made, otherwise you run the risk of making something way too micromanagey. So while having a vague pool of weapon parts from various firearms or a straight conversion to and from metal or other materials may be unrealistic the alternative may force the player to focus on an aspect of the game which may not be fun to manage.

Reverse engineering weapons is an interesting concept for early to mid game as it will act as a sink to dump your excess weapons into, but what about the weapons you don't use or no longer need to break down for research, sure you could sell them but seeing the current number of raiders chances are the influx of weapons are going to outpace the export of them.

Another point I am not a big fan of is the weapon part tiers as I think it would just encourage people to only have advanced tier weapons and nothing else.

Weapon addons or conditions I think would work better instead of tiers. These would be like traits the colonists have except for weapons.

For instance there could be a rifle that a raider dropped. It has a few positive and negative conditions like Cracked Scope, Rusty, Well lubricated, and Heavy frame. These conditions are persistent and do not need maintenance.

If you broke down a regular rifle with no conditions you have a low change of unlocking any of the positive traits possible for that specific weapon, but if you broke down the rifle with conditions on it then you have a grater or maybe guaranteed chance of unlocking that condition to put in future weapons you create.

I also believe that weapons that you acquire through any means other then making it yourself should always be better then what you can make. So when you unlock a few conditions for your weapons you should only be able to put one of those in your weapon. While weapons that you capture or buy will always have more then one trait accompanied by negative traits but is still overall better.

This opens up the field to unique weapons carried by pirate kings/queens or unique colonists and maybe even dwarf fortress style moods by colonists attached to their weapon.

Gazz

#46
Quote from: Vonriel on October 25, 2013, 03:02:30 AM
So, the idea is that when you find a gun, and we'll use pistols as a general example for now, your colonists can pick it up and start using it immediately. When you find three pistols, though, you can choose to have your colonists instead break them down and learn how pistols work. This would unlock research into pistols
Like Xanting I'm not excited about linear weapon tiers.
IMO, you should be able to "know" and use any kind of weapon immediately.

Some gating mechanisms may be useful so you don't build gatling railguns right away. =)
But that would be installations like the Advanced Workshop.
Pretty abstract like the "tech tree" in your average RTS. Build the Barracks and Lumber Mill and you can now build Axe Thrower Trolls.

Pistols and SMG: always
Rifles and AR: requires small workshop
Sniper rifles and machine guns: requires advanced workshop
You get the idea. =)


On top of that, you could make more use of this part:
Quote from: Gazz on October 22, 2013, 11:37:08 AMThat's what the weapon parts represent.
A mixture of research points and raw material.

While you could build any weapon (provided you have the right tools),
weapon parts would also be the currency to research weapon upgrades.
Pay 30 weapon parts to "research" the Uzi 9mm with extended magazine.
Then you can build that variant.

Upgraded weapons also demand even more weapon parts to build, creating a deep sinkhole for looted weapons. =)
With a system like that I could imagine players complaining about raiders dropping too few weapons. =)

Evul

Idea:
Gun lockets which may store one type of weapon multiply times for example:
Rifles 3 times
Pistols 5 times
Uzi 4 Times

And maybe an export system were the colony sell off guns.

Gazz

Quote from: Evul on October 25, 2013, 08:26:08 AMAnd maybe an export system were the colony sell off guns.
How about a holding area for "stuff that is automatically sold the next time a ship is willing to buy any of it"?

Just dump all the leftovers in there as you come across them. No need to have it cluttering up your other management screens.
And people?
"Err, guys? You kinda closed the door! Hey! Let me out? GUYS?"

AspenShadow

Strangely enough after reading through this forum I'm torn between proposing the implementation of Xanting's idea and Nomadseifer's original idea on the first page. I like the idea of weapon traits that could be discovered by breaking down the weapons, not into a micro-managey system of parts as others have feared but into basic metal. Combined with Nomad's FO3 style repair system I think it'd work great if Ty was willing/capable of using it.

(On a side note I like the idea of a mechanic's workshop area actually becoming cluttered with scrap metal unless it's regularly hauled, it would give the room a sense of... I don't know, as well as also instilling some more personality into the character)

Ford_Prefect

Having too many guns probably would be helped if ammo became a concern and the raiders leave when they get low on ammo, as opposed to everyone having infinite ammo.   The raiders having another reason to call off the attack, would provide the player the opportunity to try to counter attack and/or deny the player the weapons they carried if he/she fails to defeat them utterly.

I'm not sure if the settlers should be carrying their own supply of ammo, or if they should just pull from a global pool when they reload.  If they have their own supply, they could go to an equipment rack to restock from the colony's supply of ammo (or have someone bring them ammo from an equipment rack).  The only downside is this would increase the micromanagement  :( of combat.

Either way, this would make people who shoot straight more important (they won't waste ammo) and would give further incentive not to have the guy with 2 shooting skill on the defensive line.  Instead he/she could be inside a building with a shotgun :-D, doing repairs, hauling the injured, etc.

I like this idea because there is very little micro as the player just has to mostly worry about the total ammo level, and not the gun degradation levels for each and every gun in the base (allot of micro  :( ).

AspenShadow

Quote from: Ford_Prefect on October 25, 2013, 09:49:30 AM
Having too many guns probably would be helped if ammo became a concern and the raiders leave when they get low on ammo, as opposed to everyone having infinite ammo.   The raiders having another reason to call off the attack, would provide the player the opportunity to try to counter attack and/or deny the player the weapons they carried if he/she fails to defeat them utterly.

Tynan's already stated somewhere that he isn't going to do Ammo in Rimworld.

People keep suggesting it but it's unlikely to happen, Ammo would be difficult to implement and would require recoding the weapons' system from what I understand.

Not to mention it would encourage players to start stockpiling ammo just the same as they'd do with guns, except it would also mean adding a reloading mechanic and a special extra inventory space for shells, mags, etc.

Gazz

Reloading is a useful mechanic because it can differentiate weapons.

Tracking carried ammunition doesn't make a lot of sense at the scale of the game.

"Heavy" weapons like a LAW can simply be a one-shot item that is used up and is then gone.

AspenShadow

Quote from: Gazz on October 25, 2013, 10:25:34 AM
Reloading is a useful mechanic because it can differentiate weapons.

Tracking carried ammunition doesn't make a lot of sense at the scale of the game.

"Heavy" weapons like a LAW can simply be a one-shot item that is used up and is then gone.

I'm not sure of your meaning, but from what I understand you're in support of ammunition.

While I don't agree with the idea, both sides of the argument are moot as Tynan has stated that he's currently not interested in ammo.
You can try to change that if you want but as it stands ammo will not be a part of Rimworld to my knowledge.

GC13

Gazz supports ammunition as a governor of how long you are able to fire before taking a break to "reload", not as a supply constraint where you have to worry about keeping enough ammunition on hand like you already worry about food. Tynan has only said he didn't think ammunition as a supply constraint was fun or worthwhile.

stigma

#55
I haven't read the whole thread, but I definitely agree that there is a problem of too many guns. It needs to be limited in some ways - and also there should be a way other than selling to make use of excess guns.

Just very quickly here are some ideas:

- Gun progression/combat progression in general.
It doesn't make much sense to me (given it's essentially a survival game at heart) that the game gets hyper-militarized so quick. Gun-turrets aplenty are basically essential just to survive out of the gate, and both you and your enemies gain access to advanced weapons very fast. Solution: Slow it down considerably and have a much smoother curve towards advanced guns. Add "non-gun weapons". Homemade and improvised melee weapons and bows and the like that will be the stuff you first get access to. At first guns should be somewhat rare, and these low-tech improvised weapons should have low to no sell value, at least to off-world traders. Raiders at the start should also be low-tech to start off. Gun-turrets should be much further down the eventual tech-tree, so that you actually have to use some tactics, flanking ect. to survive encounters rather than gunturret chokepoints as is the current metagame. The game seems to already have workable basics like coversystems in place and its a damn shame that you never really get to use any of that in some tactical squad-combat. Having gun-turrets later in the game and not essential in the start makes it so that they can be more expensive and more powerful and more of a supplement to defense rather than the primary factor. Taking down that one raider with a lee-enfield when all you have are bows and homemade spears could get really exciting :)

This can lead to many fun scenarios of asymetry, like a horde of poorly equipped raiders vs. your few survivors with basic or advanced weapons (a classic "swarm defence), or the other way around, a handful of very heavly equipped raiders vs. your slightly more more numerous survivors with hardly any real guns. This should be a lot more varied than the same old same old raider attacks where primarily the difficulty is only determined by the number of attackers.

- Broken weapons: Maybe it's a bit a of a "cheap trope" but a primary way to reduce guns should be that many of them get broken in combat when dropped. That way, you may get a gun or two in a big encounter, not 20. It makes guns that you get actually exciting and valuable, rather than "ho hum, my 200'th shotgun.... how many weapons racks do I really need to construct??"

- Recycling: Broken weapons should be recyclable for a little metal, so you feel that you get something out of the deal and that all those weapons don't just seem to "disintegrate" as that feels like an extra cheap mechanic in many games where enemy weapons just "don't exist" once the enemies die.

-Stigma

FangoWolf

I like the idea of scrapping the guns to advance research.

What about Turrets requiring a gun or two for each barrel?  You want that five shot auto turret, sure if you can cobble together 10 pistols or 5 Rifles.

Reaver41

Quote from: FangoWolf on October 25, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
I like the idea of scrapping the guns to advance research.

What about Turrets requiring a gun or two for each barrel?  You want that five shot auto turret, sure if you can cobble together 10 pistols or 5 Rifles.
YES like you can upgrade turrets by adding guns and diffrent gun tyeps to them
also i support the scrapping guns to research idea.

Ford_Prefect

If there isn't going to be an ammo system.  Then I'm in favor of the slowing down the gun progression idea that stigma posted.

mumblemumble


Quote from: FangoWolf on October 25, 2013, 03:32:02 PM
What about Turrets requiring a gun or two for each barrel?  You want that five shot auto turret, sure if you can cobble together 10 pistols or 5 Rifles.
This would essentially nerf turrets though which ISN'T the topic at hand.. Honestly I don't see the big deal with too many guns, its not much different than literally any other game where guys drop guns...but if something needed to be done, my vote would be for a grinder, as it is an alternative to selling them (less efficient economically to selling, but available when traders aren't) AND it also provides the colony with another tool, perhaps used to grind down stones into small amounts of metal, while sucking up lots of power.

Compared to the other ideas, I think this would be a very good idea to solve this "problem" while also adding another element to the game.

Heck, you might even be able to add grinding up corpses for food in times of desperation =)
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