I originally pirated this...

[mumblemumble]

I can't imagine tynan cares THAT much about hearing about piracy in THIS context : I also suspect, despite the rule, this might be flexed BECAUSE of the nature of the topic. That and the thread is certainly on the mods radar, and has been seen by someone. Besides that, this place has pretty relaxed mods, for the most part.

That and tynan is a very smart man : I suspect he was very well aware long before rimworld was a concept, that piracy exists, and WILL happen, particularly for any semi successful game. So I doubt its a suprise : he should be well aware that, no matter what, it will happen : just like murder, theft, ect : it can be midigated, made less, but never removed.

On shareware, I do miss the old model, like doom, but it does not fit with the now extremely complex form with triple A titles and complex gameplay very well : but beyond  that, theres demos, which function as freeware.

I don't agree with the piracy, but I'm happy to see even pirates are talking this way now : i think it helps if a game is made with love and care, which rimworld certainly was. People can see that, and it makes a lot.

Also, who said freeware made shovelware? Seems to me the opposite, that a demo PREVENTS shovelware as apposed to no demo...its also why I very much support lets plays, and have a bit of disdain for nintendo : because I typically DONT buy things because trailers, or advertisements, or other stuff, but either demos, word of mouth, or lets plays.

[Trylobyte]

Opinions on stuff.

On piracy:  I used to be a pirate a few years ago.  For me, piracy replaced demos - I had very little money and had to be very discriminating about what games I bought, and most games made in that time didn't have demos.  This was also before Steam was a thing, so there was no online storefront to check the game out - If I wanted it I'd have to go to the store and buy it.  I had to make sure the game I was thinking about getting did three things:  One, ran on my system (Saved me big-time on a few titles), two, could hold my interest for more than a few minutes, and three, wasn't terrible.  If a game met these standards I bought it and continued playing it.  But now I don't have to do that - System Requirements Lab will tell me if my computer can run it, Steam means I don't have to drive to the store, and if a game doesn't grip me I can refund it.  The market has removed the reasons why I pirated games so I don't pirate anymore.

On shareware:  Shareware's legacy in the computing world is the 30-day free trial you see in most applications and every single antivirus.  It doesn't work quite so well for modern video games due to the way a lot of them are designed, but you'll still see episodic games do a pseudo-shareware thing by giving away the first episode free.

On shovelware:  There's always been shovelware out there (The Atari 2600 and NES were legendary for it) but it's a lot easier to make with the rise of game development tools like Unity and RPG Maker VX and a lot easier to sell due to digital distributors like Steam.  Shovelare of the past used to be limited by the fact that you had to get it on store shelves, now you can sell it straight out of your basement.

[Seriously Unserious]

Hell, it has taken off. That's what Let's Plays are. You think most LPers on youtube buy their own games? Sometimes they do, yeah, but if a dev shoots them a free title and says "I'm a fan and I'd like it if you'd try this out and consider a video on it"... They're seeking some powerful WOM marketing.

Interesting that you should mention that, watching a Let's Play is exactly how I first found out about RimWorld and decided I wanted to buy it.

At the time I didn't have the money to pay for it, so I satisfied my RimWorld craving vicariously by watching others play it until I could afford it about a couple of months ago.

I don't condone piracy as that's just stealing from the people who put time, money and effort into creating something. If they require that you pay before you play, then that's their right. they created it, they have the right to decide how people can get it.

Let's think of it this way. Let's say you have a car and are selling it. You post and ad on Craig's List. Someone is interested in buying your car, so they steal it to take it for a "test drive". Would you be happy with that, even if they did bring it back and offer to pay for it? Or would you call the cops on them and get them arrested for stealing your car. Stealing someone's intellectual property and hard work is no different, even if you do eventually decide to pay for it later. Stealing is still stealing.

Those who have pirated this or any other game, movie, book, song, etc, think of that before you do it again, and think of how you would feel if someone else did it to you and stole your work.

[Perq]

I'm not a fan of piracy in any context. People try to justify it by saying "Oh, but what if it turns out to be shit?" or even just "But what if I don't like it?" Literally the only people I've ever talked to (in person) who's agreed with this sentiment is other pirates.

Right, well, if a product turns out to be something entirely different than what it claimed to be, then you should ask for a refund or claim false advertising. If a product isn't complete, you should understand that you're taking a risk when you buy it. That's the situation with any early access game.

Right? You can't just be like: "Im gonna hitch a ride on this cruise ship. BUT, if I don't like the ride or the sights or the food or the ship stops for some reason, I'm not gonna pay for the ticket. I'll pay for the ticket when we get back from the cruise, and I've enjoyed myself... Maybe..."

Like, no. Stop it. It's super disrespectful to the person/people who are offering the product/service.

Some products are "free" because they're able to make money through advertising revenue or optional micro transactions. That's their business model. That's not Ludeon Studios' business model...

You can try to justify piracy, but you're always going to fail in the end... At least, you will in my eyes

Its all nice and games when you sit in your throne and judge people from a position of someone who can afford to buy stuff. But you ignore one thing - people who have no option to don't care what your opinion is. They will pirate it.

Now, some will try to communicate with you and explain their reasons, others won't. Those you will try to talk might come across your opinion, where you are telling them they are in the wrong, no matter what. What do they do? They oppose. The more you are trying to tell them they are wrong, they more they oppose. And there are proof that happens - stories of SPORE, Hotline Miami and many others.

In other words - you might be right, but that doesn't solve anything. Unless you try to understand where these people are coming from and try to talk with them, instead of telling them who they are and what they do wrong, you're never going to solve anything.

Ps. This arguments is ages old and arguments with cars and other things that cannot be copied like software has been debunked dozen of times. Don't use them, they are silly.

[mumblemumble]

Rimworld was also found via LP's with me too.

I originally saw it on insomniac gamers IIRC, some guy playing the pre-anything version, which had solar panels, paste dispenser, static 100hp system, beds, turrets, wires, raids and.. ....well I think that was most of it. Didn't even have wood, cannibalism, or other elements. It was bare bones back then, but I saw MAJOR potential even then, and kickstarted it. Glad I did.

[makapse]

I remember Tynan saying at the time just before the steam release that 'please dont buy the game at unauthorized sites even when they have a 90% discount. He would prefer if people pirated it than that.' Of course that was because those copies were criminal copies bought from stolen credit cards and what not.

On topic though, I don't think the mods will mind this topic too much. It is not actually encouraging piracy and rather asking those who have already pirated to come clean and buy the game for themselves and others too.

[Limdood]

Its all nice and games when you sit in your throne and judge people from a position of someone who can afford to buy stuff. But you ignore one thing - people who have no option to don't care what your opinion is. They will pirate it.

you have an option...don't play it.  you can't buy it, you can't play it.

Rimworld is the most expensive game i've bought in the past 3 years, because i can't afford to buy big name stuff.  Humble bundle, the free online games, or just non-computer recreation has to fill the rest of the time.  It's still theft, no matter your justification.

[Wishmaster]

I can't imagine tynan cares THAT much about hearing about piracy in THIS context : I also suspect, despite the rule, this might be flexed BECAUSE of the nature of the topic. That and the thread is certainly on the mods radar, and has been seen by someone. Besides that, this place has pretty relaxed mods, for the most part.

That and tynan is a very smart man : I suspect he was very well aware long before rimworld was a concept, that piracy exists, and WILL happen, particularly for any semi successful game. So I doubt its a suprise : he should be well aware that, no matter what, it will happen : just like murder, theft, ect : it can be midigated, made less, but never removed.

On shareware, I do miss the old model, like doom, but it does not fit with the now extremely complex form with triple A titles and complex gameplay very well : but beyond  that, theres demos, which function as freeware.

I don't agree with the piracy, but I'm happy to see even pirates are talking this way now : i think it helps if a game is made with love and care, which rimworld certainly was. People can see that, and it makes a lot.

Also, who said freeware made shovelware? Seems to me the opposite, that a demo PREVENTS shovelware as apposed to no demo...its also why I very much support lets plays, and have a bit of disdain for nintendo : because I typically DONT buy things because trailers, or advertisements, or other stuff, but either demos, word of mouth, or lets plays.

Did you know btw:

Tynan is so aware of game piracy that he even posted a comment on a page of a near piracy-only website, containing RimWorld to download for free.
He said something like "I know I can't stop piracy but..."

Also, yes, I legally own the game, in case you ask.

[Ignoral]

Its all nice and games when you sit in your throne and judge people from a position of someone who can afford to buy stuff. But you ignore one thing - people who have no option to don't care what your opinion is. They will pirate it.

you have an option...don't play it.  you can't buy it, you can't play it.

Rimworld is the most expensive game i've bought in the past 3 years, because i can't afford to buy big name stuff.  Humble bundle, the free online games, or just non-computer recreation has to fill the rest of the time.  It's still theft, no matter your justification.

Is it really theft though? When a game is pirated nobody really loses out, nobody lost their copy of the game. Somebody pirating your game and not playing it at all are two very different things. I'm not in the least bit ashamed to say I pirated the game prior to buying it, I suggested it to several friends who also went on to pirate and then buy the game, I will admit some didn't buy the game at all and continue to pirate it, but for the most part they simply can't afford to buy it.

If I pirate your game and don't buy it, I most likely didn't play it for more than a couple hours anyway and I definitely would not have spent money on it in the first place.

It's a tricky topic no doubt but as said by theapolaustic1, if I hadn't pirated the game then my friends and I wouldn't have bought the game.

[Seriously Unserious]

On shovelware:  There's always been shovelware out there (The Atari 2600 and NES were legendary for it) but it's a lot easier to make with the rise of game development tools like Unity and RPG Maker VX and a lot easier to sell due to digital distributors like Steam.  Shovelare of the past used to be limited by the fact that you had to get it on store shelves, now you can sell it straight out of your basement.

IMO the smartphone "free to play" games are where the biggest spam of shovelware is going these days. I do remember that in the pre-internet distribution days, shovelware was harder to get out, but I do remeber holding in my hands the most infamous shovelware title of all time. Yeah, I'm talking about Big Rigs! I was in the computer dept of my local London Drugs and was comparing 2 truck driving games, Big Rigs, and Hard Truck 2. I almost bought Big Rigs but in the end went with HT2 instead, and never know what a bullet I dodged until I saw the AVGN review years later.

OMG I would have probably gone nuclear if I'd chosen Big Rigs and found out what a broken mess it was!  HT2 was ok, nothing special and not exactly what I was looking for at the time, but I still got my money's worth in enjoyment all the same.

Also, for those of you who do still pirate, and the altruistic reasons not to pirate, that being not stealing from someone else, doesn't convince you to reconsider, then consider this, one of the most likely places to pick up Malware on your computer is piracy sites. Sure you'll get your game for "free" if you don't consider the costs of enterprise level anti-malware and/or hiring security specialists to clean up your computer, or the unusually high risk of identity theft and online account hacking from all those spyware and keyloggers getting all your personal info. I personally had to deal with ID theft last year and it was absolute effing HELL to get that sorted out.

[Bozobub]

Its all nice and games when you sit in your throne and judge people from a position of someone who can afford to buy stuff. But you ignore one thing - people who have no option to don't care what your opinion is. They will pirate it.

you have an option...don't play it.  you can't buy it, you can't play it.

Rimworld is the most expensive game i've bought in the past 3 years, because i can't afford to buy big name stuff.  Humble bundle, the free online games, or just non-computer recreation has to fill the rest of the time.  It's still theft, no matter your justification.

Nope.  It's an intellectual property violation.  While also illegal, it's a matter of civil, rather than criminal law.  It's simply not the same thing.  Easy example:  If I steal your car, you no longer have a car.  If I "pirate" your car by copying it in every way, while not appropriate or legal, you still have the original car.*

You will never, ever win the argument you're putting forth because it's based on an inherent fallacy, that simple.  Is piracy OK?  No.  Is it legal?  Depends on what country you're in.  Is it theft?  No, not even in the countries where it's illegal.

@Ignoral:  We agree that piracy is not theft, but justifications for it also fall pretty flat; programmers have rent and food bills too.  While I easily COULD pirate RimWorld and I certainly have pirated AAA games in the past, I've damn well refrained from doing so for any indie games.  Screwing over EA is one matter, a small group of programmers is quite another.

Tl;dr?  Digital "piracy" simply is not "theft"; any assertion otherwise is bald hyperbole.  It isn't, however, particularly "OK".

I personally pirate stuff from companies I absolutely despise, such as M$, Adobe, EA and the like; I *dearly love* to pirate their stuff, because I hate them and it's even more directly harmful than simply not buying their products.  In other words, as an intentionally malicious act.  I don't think doing so in an offhand manner, simply because you want w/e game or whatnot, is any less destructive; do you?

I personally can't afford RimWorld, so I'm stuck playing on a friend's PC as time allows (when I babysit his kids).  But I really am not comfortable with pirating the game, so *shrug*.  It is what it is.
______
*"Debunk" away; the analogy is perfectly valid.  Try using your own words and/or cited sources, if you believe otherwise.

[RimworldOx]

A thief with a conscience? Rimworld brings the best out of everyone who plays it ♡

[Bozobub]

Most thieves arguably are not sociopaths .  Yes, I can provide cites, if anyone wants 'em - lol...

[Ignoral]

@Ignoral:  We agree that piracy is not theft, but justifications for it also fall pretty flat; programmers have rent and food bills too.  While I easily COULD pirate RimWorld and I certainly have pirated AAA games in the past, I've damn well refrained from doing so for any indie games.  Screwing over EA is one matter, a small group of programmers is quite another.

I don't think doing so in an offhand manner, simply because you want w/e game or whatnot, is any less destructive; do you?

I completely agree, in the case of somebody pirating a game just to play it, without any thought of ever buying the game.

I don't, however, believe that piracy is black and white. You can watch as many trailers/letsplays etc as you want, but you'll never really know whether or not you will truly enjoy a game until you've tried it. If you cannot afford a game but plan to purchase it in the future when you have the necessary spare cash, then why not enjoy the game? Either way, you haven't affected the developer if you weren't already a potential sale. Perhaps you could even potentially affect the developer positively by recommending it to others.

My opinion? Bring back demos.

[Jarwy]

A thief with a conscience? Rimworld brings the best out of everyone who plays it ♡

Personally, I'm a fan of the capital punishment. Regardless of his purchase, we probably should harvest his organs and give the money to Tynan.