Human traffick debate

Started by ArguedPiano, May 13, 2017, 11:36:17 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

ArguedPiano

Quote from: vampiresoap on May 14, 2017, 11:12:47 AM
Kudos to mods still not getting upset about this and/or shutting this down ;) So open minded compared to so many other forums. For this, you guys have my utmost respects at this point.

Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3hcs_6jYA

Facts, explanations and myth-busting all in one video. Fact check him. Also, I refuse to accept any stat that doesn't come straight from the police. I don't care if they claim that they've been raped. If they never went to the police, that doesn't count at all. Period.

Steven Crowder is a clickbait producing personality that has been proven regularly to provide misinformation or just be straight up wrong. He is hardly a reputable source.
The only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down.

vampiresoap

Quote from: ArguedPiano on May 14, 2017, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: vampiresoap on May 14, 2017, 11:12:47 AM
Kudos to mods still not getting upset about this and/or shutting this down ;) So open minded compared to so many other forums. For this, you guys have my utmost respects at this point.

Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3hcs_6jYA

Facts, explanations and myth-busting all in one video. Fact check him. Also, I refuse to accept any stat that doesn't come straight from the police. I don't care if they claim that they've been raped. If they never went to the police, that doesn't count at all. Period.

Steven Crowder is a clickbait producing personality that has been proven regularly to provide misinformation or just be straight up wrong. He is hardly a reputable source.

I don't care about what other people say about a man, what I care more is what he says. Just watch the short video and fact check him. He provides sources.

The same goes for the wiki. You check the sources, not the site's reputation.

ArguedPiano

#17
Quote from: vampiresoap on May 14, 2017, 12:50:33 PM
I don't care about what other people say about a man, what I care more is what he says. Just watch the short video and fact check him. He provides sources.
I have watched the video. In fact I have never heard of Steven Crowder before today.

Steven has issues with the video to which he is responding. And sure, tears apart that particular study which was referenced, but there are many studies published every year. To say "Oh this one study is flawed and misrepresents information so all studies on the subject are invalid" is not only flawed in logic but very short sighted.

His arguments are flawed based on incomplete facts (although I will admit said video he was responding to was also flawed and deserved criticism). I did check his sources, which were a link to said study and a link the to FBI page I had found earlier today. But then I also researched Steven Crowder and found his suspicious history of alternating the truth or just straight up ignoring facts.

I cannot take such a person seriously.
The only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down.

O Negative

You should be skeptical of everything you hear. Confirmation bias should be your enemy, not your friend.


As far as the main topic going to shit, I'll accept partial responsibility and apologize publicly. I have a bad habit of letting my emotions get the better of me from time to time.

Still, my stance remains unchanged.

mumblemumble

Crowder is pretty good at being extremely fair and open minded in my experience : you bring up him ignoring info, or ignoring studies : can you please specify where, and when? We wan't specifics on this topic : also I doubt he ever said all studies were invalid, just the one he showed. This is how debate goes , particularly with studies : group A provides study, group B criticizes said study. If you want to show a study which says WHAT they define sexual assault as, be my guest, till then, I will assume its what I've encountered before

Because you cannot say someone is wrong and they should "look it up" and expect good results : I could demand someone is wrong thinking something, but unless I MYSELF can provide proof into the argument, via links, studies, statistics, or whatever, then I can't expect then to take me very serious.

@Piano : with your post agreeing with the definition of sexual assault, and accepting that dark statistics are vague, can you at least consider that these statistics are horribly vague, and possibly dangerously misleading?

AGAIN , and I will quote you on this...
QuoteSexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.
So I would argue almost every man has committed sexual assault at some point : I know by this definition, I've sexually assaulted girlfriends many times. Any time I go to feel her butt, and she doesn't explicitly give consent, THAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT. And this is the problem : its so damn vague, and nobody whos not an extreme feminist would think the above situation is wrong : and many women would prefer NOT to be explicitly asked before every sex act, but if you do any sex act without explicit permission for THAT act, that is indeed sexual assault

and THAT is why I refuse to take it serious : you include something so harmless, so normal, so COMMON, that it turns statistics upside down.

Date rape I brought up because there is an important distinction between volentarily getting drunk, and volentarily having sex WHEN drunk, and having a drink spiked. In law, pretty sure it goes as 1 : if one VOLUNTARILY drinks, and 2 : VOLUNTARILY has sex when VOLUNTARILY intoxicated, it cannot be rape, no matter how shit-faced she gets. Key word is volentary : if she CHOOSES to get shitfaced, and how she acts when shitfaced, is still on her.  This said, dont get shit faced, its a bad idea. Its also irrelivant for the topic of sexual abuse studies or crime studies, because its not crime. So those studies are horribly for REAL issues : actual sexual abuse. I will say though, for the record, they REALLY should do studies which look at these finer points, for sake of women, as it makes women who are ACTUALLY date raped, with GHB, or spiked drinks, look bad when they shouldn't.

With your concern about a woman feeling unsafe due to repeated encounters, this brings up an important consideration : what is reasonable? Now of course, its extremely subjective, but I will provide a few examples
-If you are on a dance floor, PARTICULARLY in a party, sleazy club, its reasonable if you dance with a guy, that he might touch your hips, possibly rear
-If you end a date with a guy, are smiling, making eye contact, tilting your head, its reasonable the guy might kiss you
-If you consent to sex, its reasonable they might try to feel up every inch of your body, and kiss you.

These are just a few examples. But yes, for that woman, it must feel shitty : but she can change it by monitoring how she acts to see if shes giving a guy a REASONABLE belief that doing such things are ok. If she doesn't want to be groped? don't go to dance clubs or get really physical with dudes. Don't want to be kissed? Don't tilt your head and stare at a guys eyes with a smile. Don't want to be felt up? don't have sex. See, yes, she might not enjoy these things, but we must look under the view of "is it reasonable". Because sexuality is almost entirely non verbal, and if you cannot communicate your desires, or miscommunicate, in the end, you MUST communicate better. Its like if I scream at a dude in a sandwich shop when he puts mayo on my sub, rather than mustard, because I say "I want mayonnaise" and get mayonnaise, but I MEAN mustard : you must must MUST communicate clearly, or you get nowhere. Also, your examples of being groped on the bus are dumb. Unless a girl was nuzzling up on a guy, or being REALLY friendly, most people WOULD consider it sexual assault. In-fact the entire paragraph lists ILLEGAL things, which are relevant to the statistics. I mean, if people encounter this, the solution is simple : CALL THE POLICE!!! The police will more certainly take the guy to jail if the situations are as you state : Gropers on bus, and people putting stuff in drinks is HIGHLY illegal. Besides that you could avoid situations where its prevalent, such as clubs or raves, or ghetto bars

Definition for date rape is EXTREMELY murky, which is why I hate talking about it : I find it to be idiotic to have a discussion of something which is an unclear definition, much less BASE things on it. But heres something from the wiki page.
Quoteor when the perpetrator has sex with a victim who is incapable of giving consent because they have been incapacitated by drugs or alcohol
This might seem straight forward on the surface, but its "incabable of giving consent due to being incapacitated" not just "because they are incapacitated". Also then it gets into the murky territory of "when can you give consent". If you believe anyone is drunk cannot give consent, then I've been date raped, and date raped others (at the same time) and neither of us got upset. And should BOTH of us be jailed? I think not. This is my problem with it, is it, AGAIN, includes legal, and morally accepted behaviors under this umbrella : which, AGAIN, are extremely common, and not very harmful (for the record, drunk sex is a terrible idea, but its the fault of both parties, and punishment for this does more damage than not punishing : which negates the point of punishment.

As for your last questions...
-Depends on if you had a reasonable reason to believe it was acceptable prior, and if you did not continue when it was made clear to stop. If both are true, yes, its acceptable. if you want to AVOID it, do not put yourself in scenarios which it seems reasonable : for instance, I don't want a bunch of gay dudes groping me, therefore, I choose NOT to go into gay bars, or their dance floors...because that would certainly make that FAR more likely to happen.
-I would say its ok, again, if theres a reasonable belief its going to be accepted. You must ask yourself : are you engaged with the person? What is the context? Is there a medical, or emergency need to do so? Are they displaying any type of affection? How far have things been pushed with them so far, and how did they react? Did they react positively to questions, or other suggestive discussions? I could go on but these are what determine it : you must critically think about it, because I cannot spell out every single circumstance that could happen, as I would be writing for months on end. Also important, is if you have reasonable suspicion, and it STILL wasn't consensual, it should be forgivable : for instance if a woman grinds up on a dude in a club, and he fondles her, EVEN if she gets upset, there was reasonable suspicion she might of been ok with it. This is just a fact of communication, and sexuality : communication fails, and people (male and female) DO NOT LIKE using verbal communication for sex, which leads to mistakes like this. And small mistakes like that are not comparable to just grabbing some womans tits on a train without knowing her.
-Touching a breast is legal under circumstances where there is implied consent, aka, reasonable suspicion of acceptability. Its less protected than say,  kissing, or butt fondling I would say, but the same principle applies.
-Arm and shoulder is generally permitted without express permission depending on context : tapping a shoulder of someone, or grabbing someones arm to alert them / help them is completely acceptable, and the arm / shoulder is not a sexual zone either. This can be revoked when someone informs you they DO NOT wish to be touched, but its nowhere near as bad as grabbing ass or tits.
-Genitals are erogenous zones, and EXTREMELY potent ones : fondling a womans crotch out of nowhere is traumatic, scary, confusing, pleasurable, and just a big mess of emotions, especially from a stranger. You can just examine peoples reactions. For instance, if a random stranger came up and poked my shoulder, I would look at them funny, but thats it. if they poked my dick, I would take issue with it. I guess if you had to quantify it, It would go by nerve endings, proximity to orafice to the body, and if they are re productively involved. If they are any falling under those, especially several, don't touch them unless you have a pretty good reason, or belief its ok.... Though to be completely honest with you, I've very rarely gotten "explicit consent" from exes : usually sex just happened, and it was great. This is because a man asking for consent is NOT very sexy to both parties, compared to just doing it while reading body language.

Believe me, I understand the far reaching effects of sexual trauma : my mother was molested as a young woman, and ended up with a fear, and hate for most men, which hurt me as well in the end, making me hate my masculinity for several years : so I'm aware of the effects : but this is honestly part of the reason I want such things in the game, because I want dialog on such issues, and the effects of REAL rape.

Quote from: O Negative on May 14, 2017, 01:44:55 PM
You should be skeptical of everything you hear. Confirmation bias should be your enemy, not your friend.


As far as the main topic going to shit, I'll accept partial responsibility and apologize publicly. I have a bad habit of letting my emotions get the better of me from time to time.

Still, my stance remains unchanged.
To be honest negative, this is why I LOVE Louder with crowder : even to people he vehemently disagrees with, he allows them on his show to give their view on it, and actually tells his viewers to ALSO go read huff-post, salon, buzz-feed, etc, so he can KNOW what the other side is saying. I always look for information to prove me wrong, if I can find it to objectively be true, but I throw out subjective, unreliable, or unclear things, because, well, they aren't reliable. Its why I criticized the stats in this thread, because they WERE all over the place, and just accepting them would be possibly accepting false ideas without reading into the fine print.

...phew, sorry for the wall of text.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

ArguedPiano

#20
I appreciate your well thought out opinions, mumble, and the time you have spent replying in a civil manner. The reason I gave no consideration into my replies to vampiresoap regarding Steven, is because they have (seemingly) given no consideration into mine.

You have put an enormous effort into articulating your thoughts, and I have read it all. Due to current time constraints I will reply only to one question:
Quote from: mumblemumble on May 14, 2017, 02:49:11 PM@Piano : with your post agreeing with the definition of sexual assault, and accepting that dark statistics are vague, can you at least consider that these statistics are horribly vague, and possibly dangerously misleading?
Yes, I agree that given said definitions are vague, statistics being reported have the opportunity to be misleading.

My opinions on the main concepts here remain the same, but I understand how there could be  mistrust in such raw data as I have cited.


And rightly so. As a man that I hold in very high regard once said:

"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense."
- Carl Sagan
The only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down.

mumblemumble

#21
Heh, I honestly think Carl Sagen is a bit of a jackwagon(If im thinking of the right guy), but I can appreciate the quote.

Considering you conceded the point on the data being vague, and possibly misleading, I can respect you for that : I only wish people would examine the verbiage of how these studies are done, as well as the elements behind sexuality and how they relate into the morality of it.

I think a big part of all this too, is both sexes sometimes view things as "me vs them" mentality, which is a perspective which will DOOM you to failure : too many women (and men) view relationships as a war, and not a partnership : and this is the main bit which causes much conflict. If you view it that way, you will either 1 : oppress your partner 2 : cause a break up, or 3 : cause conflict. You MUST view things as a partnership, where you care EQUALLY for yourself, and your partner. This MUST apply to male and female if you want a successful relationship : which is why I think people should take marriage far more serious, and relationships outside it LESS serious.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

Razzoriel

I just want to add my two cents on this debate by giving some historical context.

The biggest pool of slaves and enslavers came from Africa, where black slaves were sold to the americas by europeans. What most history books forget to mention, however, is that it was the africans themselves who enslaved each other by tribal fights and quarrels. I'm not going into the heart of the argument here if europeans fomented such struggles or not, just that it was tribes enslaving tribes.

In what it seems to be a highly inaccurate TV series, Vikings, had a very accurate portrayal of what it was like to be enslaved by the Vikings back at the time; you were treated not as merchandise, but as someone who had some value to add to your society. Everyone had chores to do, and the "slaves" or "thralls" were simply another cog to the machine. There was social ascension in this system, and a slave that was proven himself in combat could even be given the rank of huskarl.

I seriously doubt Tynan is going to give any sort of attention to this part of the game, because he is already crossing lots of lines by making a game in Canada, of all places, with lots of controversial points, and he already poked enough at that wasp nest. If some sort of "price weight" could be given to younger female pawns, together with all the rest of the skills, I'd be positively surprised, because it is not something other devs would take into account when developing such a game, and it is quite accurate historically.

BetaSpectre

Slaves and human trafficking boils down to essentially two things. Men sent to labor, women sent for pleasure/atmosphere.

Being forced to work against your will, possibly with the threat of death and often death isn't really cared about as much as these people never make it anywhere in society, while a raped young woman can get her voice heard once she escapes as is more likely to occur than a man stuck in a sweatshop or some farm or ship.

Despite both being kidnappings and both inhumane situations. Another aspect is that economies are disrupted if men are rescued from such situations, businesses such as Nestle will have a harder time keeping global supply of chocolate.

I've met quite a handful of men and women stuck in life where they don't want to be. Heard a few other stories of people adapting or liking new life stuck in a gilded cage.

In the end the only way to really make a difference is through economical disruption. Fail to deincentivize cruelty and it'll just come back in some dark alley way or some wealthy bright golden party on wallstreet. 

In China it's rather common for wealthy men to import women from abroad such as thailand, Cambodia, Nepal, etc. They kidnap some poor village girl then treat her to the whole 9 yards. Multi-million dollar estate, servants, status, etc.

Other times you can get small towns that use adoptive services to funnel and train certain qualities such as intelligence, modernized looks, and mannerisms. etc. Then some wealthy person comes along for the purchase on the family's "investment" feeling trapped and ferried far off not too much to do, being raised in that scenario makes people not look for more options.

Rather recently found someone picked up, constantly abused, and subject to a strict life with little to no freedom (She was taken after an incident left her family dead), she was too scared to lift a hand against them. And also adopted their values. It didn't hurt that her abuser was incredibly wealthy and tied heavily with the police force. He was a good officer in public as well catching murderers, and rapists. While at home he was an abusive father to her, and the others.

There are countless stories of women finding a wonderful boyfriend only for him to end up being a trafficker convincing the girl to follow him out of the country, only to be entrapped into sex slavery. In an age of selfishness it becomes so easy to create lures for victims it leaves society very vulnerable. Sadly the best that can be done is simply to create decent communities and supporting one another.

Runaways, homeless, etc. When you leave vulnerable people in vulnerable situations where there's profit in being exploited it's a no brainer.

Personally I think government regulated business and labour would fix these nasty issues. At the cost of freedom and growth. At this point prisons are the govt's means of providing slave labour and can be rented out to companies for sweatshop priced goods made by Americans. Had most of these workers been allowed the option to work for a living I'm sure they wouldn't have turned to a life of crime then turned into slaves/indentured servants to the state/private prison industries.

In Germany there's govt regulated and taxed prostitution in hopes to avoid Albanian sex trafficking/entrapment. And as always a demand for such services.
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░─╤▌██ |
░░░░░░░░─╤▂▃▃▄▄▄███████▄▃|
▂█▃▃▅▅███/█████\█[<BSS>█\███▅▅▅▃▂
◥████████████████████████████████◤
                           TO WAR WE GO

mumblemumble

I think people fear female sex slaves more because of the dynamic of it : its not uncommon for Stockholm syndrome to happen, of even for women to sexually enjoy the situation eventually, even if mental health otherwise suffers. Sure, forced labor is pretty damn simple : if the guy wants to be there / has the freedom to leave, those 2 things are the biggest factors, and it makes it pretty simple, but female slaves for sex (or male) are far more complex and messy.

This is extremely uncomfortable for people to admit, and puts a nasty wrench into the idea of consent, which many people don't want to speak of : its not necessarily that it would justify a woman being raped if she eventually liked it, but the dynamics of typical female submissiveness is such a can of worms, but people seem to just to blanket statements rather than try and figure out the core functions of it : not that I blame them, because the truth is actually kinda fucking scary, and is not easily explained either.

Wish there was more awareness though, of male and female sexuality, and how it functions in morality : what makes what moral, and immoral (because there ARE moral, and immoral behaviors) but most people aren't capable to face such ideas and make moral judgements, because its such an extremely loaded issue emotionally.

I'm not even saying this is all, or most women : but I feel understanding this element is critical for helping such women.

As for prostitution, I do think more promiscuous, sexually open cultures might promote this : sexual provocation from models, porn,  flirting, sexual advertisements, ect, can promote a mans sex drive, and a mans sex drive is sadly a core factor in prostitution : I figure if less obsession was made to "getting laid", more focus was on getting a good wife, and sexual provocation was less, you would get more men with wives, and less men screwing hookers.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

BetaSpectre

It really is a shame when people's opinions change after imprisonment. The biggest issues stem from the entrapment and reliance of the victim on the abuser. Simply you're not going to bring issues up to your boss when he controls your income. Whether this be at a normal work place or a sex den under a pimp.

If there was a better system of shelters, better education on reaching such services. Things commercially might start to close.

Still if a person is imprisoned and changes their mind, they often can claim they were under heavy duress and unable to speak their minds fully. time and time again many cases were of incidents long ago.

A problem however is that consent can be very fickle. Like a girl sending some nerd to prison for tapping her shoulder and calling it rape since he was annoying, while the same girl lets some jock practically violate her because she's sexually attracted to him at the time.

False rape accusations are the biggest detriment to a woman's ability to defend herself against a rapist. It sets up a narrative of ambiguity that a rapist can use to defend himself Even more so if he can make the victim seem untrustworthy. On college campuses if it's established for example through text messages that the accused rapist is the victim's boyfriend/girlfriend then the case is tossed out. Despite most typical rape occurring from relatives/acquaintances.

Commercially if the woman benefits from the situation I am curious as to how many develop a Stockholm Syndrome of sorts. Some women are kidnapped from impoverished areas, but if they are able to make a living from prostitution, it makes me wonder if they often stop caring of the origins of their work. And how many cases where women kidnapped are forced to work without any such monetary incentive, how many of them just stay quiet.
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░─╤▌██ |
░░░░░░░░─╤▂▃▃▄▄▄███████▄▃|
▂█▃▃▅▅███/█████\█[<BSS>█\███▅▅▅▃▂
◥████████████████████████████████◤
                           TO WAR WE GO

mumblemumble

its a shame, but its a reality : pavlovian psychology is one of the best branches I've found, and it explains all of this really : how a slave will have things happen to them, with mixed impulses of trauma and pleasure, and out of stress, they will accept the trauma, and focus on pleasure, simply to preserve themselves from terrible things : not the actions themselves, but the feelings : because the feelings are what really cause the trauma, particularly if theres no means to escape them, or otherwise compensate

Its funny you mention the jock, along with nerd : the nerd scenario is quite literally a stuck up bitch, who should be put in jail for disturbing the peace : nobody in their right mind should arrest someone for poking your shoulder, unless you tell them to stop, they dont, call the police, and then they STILL don't stop : but what you described with the jock well, first off, that is technically consent, but another thing which is true, but people feel sickeningly uncomfortable with, is that force is erotic for both sexes : men and women generally get aroused by used of force, women being force, and men on forcing : this is not to say this is always true, or always right, but its a very common factor

The big question is, how do we then adapt law and morality?

I personally think getting sexually involved with a girl you ARE NOT commited too, in this context it bad, as it puts women in a bad place : it essentially tells women they must always say no, and be paranoid, be worried, worry about not being a bitch, worry about not being a whore, all while being a bit horny possibly as well : and its frankly a bit unfair for them, I admit.

Therefor, I think as a society we should be more hard on promiscuity in general : not in law persay, but by mens actions : I do not think men should be permitted to go up on random girls and grope them out of nowhere without knowing them first, because then it gives women a toss up between 3 decisions : call the police, or otherwise fight, tell them to stop (which is not always effective, since you can say stop now, but then it doesn't necessarily count 2 minutes later) or just allow it : and considering a touch is arousing, it puts women in a horrible place of temptation.

I think the same applies to men, but with women acting / dressing promiscuous : people forget flashing a guy, or grinding your rear in a guys lap is the arousal equivalent of groping a girls pussy : and unwanted arousal is indeed the thing to worry about : and while some may guilt men with "control yourself", I would be lynched for saying a woman should "control herself" when her pussy is groped (yes, I disagree with donald doing that crap, for the record)

All and all, its important to see if rape allegation is indeed because of an unavoidable sexual trauma, OR, if its just a spiteful woman trying to use her woman card to hurt others. Frankly, rape allegations should also be ignored unless 1: its taken to the police, and court, or 2, its VERY obvious... I mean like, screaming, crying for help, and people see you : at which point I think the rapist would get beaten down. The reason I say this is too many people shame accused rapists or fire them, but its never given a chance to examine if its true : it could be complete and total BS, they might of never had sex at all, but its taken serious.

Its like if I accused milon on here of jacking my car : he is then an accused car-jacker, technically speaking, but an accused car-jacker whos innocent, has no proof of wrong doing, and is not being taken to court by the accuser, so everyone should just IGNORE me.

I also think particularly women like amy shcumer are very destructive : she has in the past shamed coworkers for supporting women in calling police on rapists, which she shames as "victim blaming" : but its true : if a man wants to rape women, assuming hes hidden from public, he can do it with impunity if women refuse to call the police.

another element is that some women do indeed get raped, but say it was consensual to simplify things : going through a rape trial is traumatic. This is why I STILL say women should be careful, avoid bad scenarios, because, victim blaming or not, it DOES reduce rape to be aware of it. In the end, we only control the self, and blaming others is only effective to an extent.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.