Immigration discussion

[mumblemumble]

citations

aren't most of those people sharing theories? no worse than CNN saying trump being elected wont happen.

And as for protesters, half the fuckers of antifa are homeless who are infact given money to act like hooligans. They are just an incredibly xenophobic group, and don't talk to outsiders so finding hard documentable proof of this is difficult, but its obvious antifa, bamn, BLM, and other groups are not surfing upon their OWN money. (besides that, they are legally definable as terrorists)

Global warming still has the science out on it on if its catostrophic as people claim (and we are projected to cool down a few degrees)

And transgender bathroom law HAS lead to an increase of men dressing as women doing innapropriate things in womens bathrooms...moving on

brietbart supports hatecrime

Where? Also you are assuming context : its like if I accused you of wanting to decapitate kittens : its a baseless accusation and defamation of charecter. They don't show any indication of WANTING hate crimes to spread that is you being a paranoid fear mongerer with no basis.

Another thing about hate crime which I mentioned again : its less about hate crime and more about CRIME : if you have a white guy who gets in fights with people, he will INVARIABLY commit a hate crime if he fights anyone whos not white, straight, male, and whatever religion he is. Otherwise if he beats up a gay man, muslim, black man, transgender, or whatever, with a side of shit talking : guess what? IMMEDIATELY its a hate crime. But that has nothing to do with the guy being a violent man DOES it? Hate crime law is actually damaging for america and europe, putting people who are more innocent than the law suggests in jail for MUCH longer than is necessary. Infact your link about hate crime is redundant, because its less a reflection of "more hatred" against blacks or gays - people have hated gays and blacks since the dawn of time, these are just recordings of ENFORCEMENTS of the law, which have gone up : and some of those are from black people hurting white people, like the apes who cut a chunk out of a disabled white mans skull. But you don't want to talk about that compared to a white guy just calling a black guy a nigger, DO you?

I'm  actually very GLAD you brought up milo : he was an interesting guy, and I'm THANKFUL he tried to kill poliitical correctness, but I think he also demonstraights an interesting symptom of homosexuality : and that is that bitterness in the opposite sex is VERY easy to foster, easier than in straight men, because straight men STILL want to fuck women. But gay or lesbian, if you have any idealogy which devalues the opposite sex, it can easily lead to bitterness : which I still think milo is not (half his posts are more saying LOTS of women are negatively influence by feminism, or that men and women have REAL differences we must account for). Even the things about women on frontlines (in a sub is NOT a front line dangerous job, being a marine raiding a terrorist hideout is) has validity : we don't WANT women blown up, crippled from mortars, or have to bury them due to an IED turning a woman into a fine red mist : yet this is hateful towards woman? if I said I DID want a woman to get blown up, is that loving? Fuck off. Oh and laws and human rights are a social construct. Not to say they are bad, but they better have good reason backing them up : its legal in iran to throw homosexuals off buildings then mutilate their bodies : Do you support that buddy?

hatred

I really don't think you even grasp what hatred is, nor do you grasp what Christianity is about.

The point of the analogy was its a 1 way street : commonly gay people can FORCE christians to do something they find reprehensible or shut them down : and this is not even because they cannot otherwise find a cake, this is opportunistically bullying christians, seeking out a christian bakery (they aren't that common) and intentionally fucking with them. Meanwhile if you ask for a cake about traditional family christian values, and a cake about bible quotes how homosexuals will die with their blood on their hands, this is denied : this illustrates homosexuals and christians are not treated equally and fairly on protected class grounds.

And beyond that, I think people SHOULD be able to deny service for morale reasons

If a gay person wants to deny me because I want them to do things they find morally wrong, they should have the right, as should Christians : but I guess you think only gay people should have that right? I also think its funny they won't try this with muslims at any point.

Also I understand the law, and I understand the law is shit and needs to be revised, as it causes MORE damage than it helps : honestly think for a second put yourself in the shoes of a kid whos dads bakery shut down because some homsexuals put him out of  buisness, and his kid being told this : Your fathers buisness, all his hard work, shut down because some homosexual screamed about "discrimination", even when he suggested other bakeries, and wanted to compromise on OTHER cakes : but no, father is put out of buisness, and tons of savings go down the drain  : Do you think this would make you want to respect gays, or want to lynch them like ACTUAL violence against gays?

Fallacies about health

No. Even with the higher population, you cannot say that without saying obama should of not been elected, because IIRC kerry or another person got more votes too, so don't even bitch unless you want to say obama should not of been elected. But that would make you a racist in your own eyes wouldn't it?

Its less about what happens when IN office, but remember people talking about mcain, who was old but in amazing shape? that was a concern, and people were ALL over it, but you got hilary whos actually collapsing, flipping out, and looking like shes not well at all, and you say we cannot worry

Furthermore its a worry about recovery : a faint when in office, 1 time, as an isolated incident can happen, due to dehydration or  whathave you, but hilary was dragged by her staff, collapsed on stage, looked like she was hallucinating...it wasn't an isolated incident, she seemed like something BIG was wrong with her during this, or at very least like she had regular problems with health. THAT was the worry.

And let us not forget, the left obsessed over donald trumps mental health because some random "psychologist" said he seemed like he had anger issues, without any formal diagnosis, or critical issues from it.

I refuse to comment on where I am In europe

Then I'm going to assume you are tucked in a corner of a world free from the worst of immigrants : I can live in say, the bible belt of america and say america is christian, live in san francisco and say america is all about gay rights, or live in texas and say america is all about guns : Each of this points has bias, and it matters less what I think, and if theres data to back it up being right, and if its in law (like the 2nd amendment.)

So yeah, if you refuse to answer, then you saying you are unaffected is nothing more than an anecdote. It also doesn't help that, even if you got your daughter raped by immigrants last night, saying it online COULD get you arrested for hate speech over there : so I'm more likely to believe a European to American immigrant, than some guy supposedly SOMEWHERE in europe, supposedly....maybe its jordan?

And over all, I find it DISGUSTING you completely ignore any of brietbarts studies or evidence for any of the stuff listed in the cracked article, yet call them awful : You want to just ignore any science that brietbart cites, cause brietbart. Its actually a sickening habit, where people can hear cold hard proof of something, and reject it outright because "well, its not CNN saying it, so its probably fake". Why not examine the study itself?

[BetaSpectre]

Breitbart has a bad habit of using some poor circular logic sources. Like picking info from a KKK/White supremacist book that has no sources on claims as a source.

But sadly in today's age most places CNN, Fox etc. they all have their bad apples from time to time. The issue though is with the overall bias.

CNN is too liberal, and Breitbart is too conservative.

Albeit they were right about the Immigrant crisis affecting Europe. People have been saying it was inevitable for 20 years.

[mumblemumble]

THAT I can actually understand beta (though seriously, WHAT book did they cite? I'll judge if its KKK stuff myself...for all I know you could be talking about the bible lol. And more importantly, is the stuff cited FACTUAL? some would say "white girl bleed a lot" was a KKK book, but it was literally a list of events where black people assaulted whites in racially motivated incidents, which, strangely, WEREN'T counted as hatecrimes)

More importantly, I've seen a fluxuation along the years where news sources get better, or worse. CNN used to be not terrible, but now its bad. Fox used to be full of retractions and illogical BS, but is now not bad.

I think that this just changes with management, anchors, staff, ect : its like any company, the company is not the same as 20 years ago because 20 years ago it was different staff, making a different company : which is why I say you should read / judge each article rather than say "ew (insert news source) is a horrible news source!", or on the other end, believe a news source without any good logic behind it

This is where its tricky, and most mess up : theres BS on the right AND left, but you must be able to sniff out the bullshit where ever it is, and look for truth even if you disagree with it.

Maybe in 5 years brietbart will literally be without any citations, and will advocate for violence, and CNN will be all hard facts and hard questions : who knows, but in the meantime, you must read as much as you can, and be critical of it.

In the end, ACCURACY is more important than "hate speech" or "homophobia" or "islamaphobia" or "racism" or "sexism" or any of that. Even though you might not like it, facts give no fucks about your feelings, and NO amount of feelings change FACTS.

EDIT : this is interesting..  http://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/753542/safe-holiday-destinations-summer-2017-europe

Cant help but notice it seems places with more migrants are most dangerous...or is that just me?

[BetaSpectre]

Allowing migrants in suggests a nation doesn't have strong cultures inside. This means lax family values. And hence no teaching children morality. In the nations that allow migrants inside mostly Western nations like the USA there is no family culture, and no unity.

In cultures with 0% migration like Japan. The culture is INCREDIBLY strong and there is practically no crime. You can leave your wallet outside in Japan and no one will steal the money.

The legal (Most illegals are in two groups Expired Visa (Decent folk), and Drug Warlords(Murderers and sex traffickers)) immigrants are RARELY the major source of crime. But their CHILDREN have very high chances of causing trouble compared to their parents. Though in the USA it's a land of immigrants. The parents from say England come over are very good people looking to save the lives of their children, and then those kids grow up join a gang, and cause trouble.

Of course there are demographics showing that ghettos are where like 9x of the crime happens compared to any other region. Mostly drug offenses. While some do argue that these are only the people that are caught because only Ghettos get screened for crime.

Most of what I'm talking about came from listening to Secular Talk or TYT, and I'm too lazy to verify every talking point. I def know not all their sources are correct, and they are biased, but it's easy enough to compare native vs immigrant crime rates of any nation. Generally if you give up everything to save your life in a new land you play by the rules. But those raised in gangs or ghettos as most immigrants stay in due to poverty will end up in terrible demographics and promote crime. Most exceptions to this are in the Asian/Indian/Jewish communities, though it all comes back to culture and strong family values. And after one or two generations they've left the ghetto for good. Making our middle and upper classes.

[milon]

So far, it looks like everyone has mostly been keeping a level head.  (No, I haven't read every word on here, but at a glance it looks decent enough.)  Thank you for that.  This is from me speaking as a forum moderator, a forum member, an individual who lives in a city that intentionally takes in and shelters thousands of refugees (tens of thousands?), and as a health care provider who is actively seeking to provide services for refugees who have virtually no money to put towards their own health care.

Again, thank you for keeping this basically level-headed.  This is a very intense topic for some, and I ask that you continue to keep this thread level-headed and consider that refugees/family/friends are a part of our virtual community.  This isn't academic or of intellectual curiosity for them - it's real life.  Please continue to treat this discussion as such.

Honestly, it's quite rare to find an online community of this quality, which is why I continue to be a part of it.  Thank you, RimWorld community - you're one in a million! 

[mumblemumble]

I admit its why I like the rimworld community as much as I do milon.

Its kind of interesting, I suspect its BECAUSE rimworld as a game demands a certain level of maturity, and nobody without it would be really interested in the game to begin with. Some might say this is a bad thing, excluding others, but I think its VERY good : especially as I have some extremely controversial viewpoints, and can express them here safely. Especially when now, Facebook for instance is cooperating with Pakistan in investigations of homosexual posts, posts which are blasphemous, which is leading to the death penalty.. essentially they have blood on their hands, and despite supporting gay rights are allowing killing of homosexuals overseas. Facebook is now an accessory to murder, in my opinion, or at LEAST has blood on their hands.
http://www.alternet.org/world/coming-out-facebook-may-soon-be-death-sentence-saudi-arabia
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/13/man-in-pakistan-sentenced-to-death-for-blasphemous-facebook-comments/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKf_GR79ZTA
Its rather ironic, because, despite being anti LGBT, I find facebooks willingness to do that abhorent, but I suppose its because I think actions speak louder than words,  and despite my disagreement, they deserve chances at redemption, rather than a cruel death. Ideals should stand on their own merits, all of which to be openly criticized, and "winners" picked after carefully examining all information.

EVERYONE should be able to spread ideas, and EVERYONE should be able to criticize EVERY IDEA. Even as a christian, PLEASE, criticize as much as you want the bible and god, but allow me to do the same for anything else : And inversely, defend your point with logical discussion, and expect me to defend my points.

--------------

Beta, you make an interesting point : I suspect this honestly might even be a playing factor in black communities in the US, due to them FEELING like they do not belong : and this is one of the reasons I'm a nationalist, because a national identity DOES indeed help group cohesion, and those who it doesn't help are typically refusing to have a national identity. Its actually funny thinking about this, because thinking back, the black people who have always been the most likable / sociable that I have met have NOT identified as black as the PRIMARY thing about them, and 2, did not have an immense amount of discontent towards whites.

I think this is a big factor : trying to focus on what makes us the same, unless something which is different is KNOWN to also be a damaging factor, and is proven to be the case : otherwise its assuming malice, and that gets us nowhere : its why BLM and other groups have worsened racial tensions, is they insist white people are horrible, racist, hateful, ect, and demand you support them / obey them, and if not, that is proof you are a racist : and this in no way makes friends or allies, and if I'm honest, can CAUSE racism and hate towards any group : its just the way the mind works, if a group has a consistent pattern of doing something, you create a stereotype of it. And I have certainly seen racism get worse in people I know BECAUSE of such things : strangely, this even applies to the rather ironfisted LGBT policies in some cities. Point is, you CANNOT make someone accept you if you start off being rude to them for not agreeing with you.

Beyond that, as you said beta, differences which are voluntary are actually bad for cohesion and unity : this is why the military for so long had you shave your head, use the same clothes, ect, because they wanted you to be a SOLDIER in a UNIT, of other SOLDIERS : not worry about if the other guys white, black, ect, but worry about them being a soldier. The problem is, when a difference goes from involuntary (race, sex, physical build, ect) to voluntary (self expression, gender expression, cultural expression, religion expression, clothes, ect), that this can provide a problem : involuntary differences are accepted for the most part because people know it cannot be changed : no black person can choose to be white, and no woman can choose to have a penis when she has a vagina : but voluntary differences act very different : everyone knows in the end, you can choose how you act, what you talk about, dress, ect, so this difference is not just a difference, but a CHOICE to be different : which builds more division in a group potentially. Not saying people cannot make different choices, but the more different you CHOSE to be, the less cohesion you can expect within your group you are choosing to be different from, and this is critically important if you choose to be different from one of the things that unite the group. (like a group of a church going atheist, then getting alienated.)

Course, thats not even to say the japanese are wrong : racial divides do indeed cause issues with family and self identity (not so much wider spread culture), so its not necessarily a bad idea to have a group isolated to breed with / commune with its own group, but when working within a group of multi racial / ethnic groups, cohesion plays a part far more, and this is something to take into account, while left to their own devices, each group having their own segregated group is not bad for upbringing / family strength. Outside that, having SOMETHING held in common with all helps : church, patriotism, something.

As for TYTs, I cannot take them serious : wasn't that the show where some snobby bitch said she was better than everyone who criticizes her?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhwpvzc8pAE
Yeah.....I CANNOT take them serious
not that I can blame you, I was subscribed to them back in the day, but began to see their trashy double standards.

[Kegereneku]

Keeping a discussion level headed is a meager consolation for the absurd amount of fallacy coming from some participants.
So many that you can't decide which one to address first or what's the problem with those people, at some point you don't bother anymore.
In any case, I'm sorry for throwing the mumbler on a different topic.

Mumble, I and others have already addressed and contradicted 90% of the stuff you rant about in previous discourse, frankly you are disappointing.
So I hope you'll understand why I think keeping on the "what's wrong with Breibart?" discussion with you would not be productive.

On this, goodbye.

[mumblemumble]

keg, this is why I have issues with you, and sometimes others : I don't mind disagreements, I really don't (infact I rather enjoy them) but as much as I welcome disagreements, what you and others often resort to is just that : to accuse someone of fallacies without listing them, say sources are crap without debating why, and saying theories are true without providing evidence towards them.

If you have caught me using fallacies : point out why so it can be debated, and understood EXACTLY what you are talking about. As much as Milon HATES off topic, I gotta say I figure (sorry for speaking for you milon!) that he would prefer off topic movements to clairify understanding to conflicts / animosity on the forum.

If you have an issue with a source, such as brietbart, raise the issue directly : and conversely, allow cross examination

This is how discussion works, and when you take the approach you do, of walking off in a huff when someone doesn't side with you, then it only makes you look bad : that aside, if you REALLY believe in an idea, you should allow it to be questioned, and answer such questions : to either re-affirm a good belief, or compromise a bad belief by showing its flaws.

For instance, your views on brietbart : which for the record, you can hate as much as you want, just as much as I hate pinknews. But if you wish to express this in a public square, either prepare to 1: explain your reasoning and answer questions. Yes, this may very well mean LOTS of questions (seriously, anyone on the forum can ask me damn near anything, short of personal information) 2 : have people criticize, and disagree with your views, especially if you do not stand up to questioning, or 3 : just don't talk about it

Oh and don't play as if "you don't have time" for this : you are taking the time to look at my thread and post, yet say you don't have time to make any critical, informative posts : I welcome debate, but if you don't have time to make a well thought out post that addresses as much criticism as possible, perhaps you simply should not post? I suppose it is your right, and I cannot take it away from you, but otherwise you just look like a snarky scoofer, which is useless to a discussion.

AGAIN : I'm fully willing to have discussions with people, and hear opinions I'm foriegn to / do not agree with, but you must make a case, and defend against criticism if you want to be taken serious : I had one woman on here literally advocate for bestiality on here, and she was more convincing in her argument BECAUSE she actually accepted and tried to address criticisms : and thats a bit sad.

I don't WANT to believe europe is being besieged from within, but don't just say "mumble uses fallacy and brietbart is bad", and try and walk out on the debate there : its no better than antifa spouting crap about "Racist sexist antiqueer, bigots are not welcome here", and then refusing to even address where they say the racism, sexism, antiqueer, or bigotry allegedly was. If you indeed see something, point it out and explain it : ANYONE can accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING, but proving is where the rubber hits the road : Explain where my fallacy is and counter at least HALF my points on brietbart, and then I will take you serious alright?

Also, one VERY important thing to keep in mind : yes, I am not in Europe, but Europe is also HIGHLY anti free speech at the moment. One guy in Scotland got arrested for making his girlfriends dog jump around when he said "gas the jews" : about as serious as a fart joke and he even admitted nazis were "the least cute thing in the world". And in other places theres a massive crack down on anti muslim, anti immigrant rhetoric. This in turn means voices are SILENCED in Europe, so I wish to speak for the ones SCARED to speak there. Beyond that, if anyone can voice anti christian, anti white, anti straight opinions, its completely within my right to voice any opinions I have or else I do not have the same rights as others, which is FAR worse an issue than any anti xyz talk.

[mellowautomata]

This is how discussion works, and when you take the approach you do, of walking off in a huff when someone doesn't side with you, then it only makes you look bad

See, if people stop talking to you, it's not categorically because you don't side with them. I've spent plenty of my time talking and arguing with people who, for example, deny that holocaust ever happened. I've went through all the gritty details. When for example that one person is brought up who tried to claim that there had to be more chemical traces than there actually were (of zyklon b), I asked a friend who actually studies chemistry about the topic and got all the answers. When the alleged "human made soaps" were brought up, I checked all the sources and found out that actually nobody ever claimed that they were mass produced and there were evidence that such a project did exist until it was scrapped for not being economically feasible. I've spent countless of hours on that kind of stuff.

The result? There's always something else, a loophole or whatever, that the arguing person will use to just continue without even giving a slightest thought to the idea that maybe if there are dozens of debunked claims, the roots of these claims might not be so honest as one would imagine.

Now, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has observed such behavior (in fact, I wouldn't even say that I'd be personally immune to behaving in such a way). And knowing that, the logical conclusion is to start looking for "warning signs" of such behavior and just stop it there. There's no reason to continue the discussion that will never be productive.

For me, personally, reading Breitbart is a warning sign. It's a media outlet that is directly meant to indoctrinate its readers with ideas, that is, to transform these ideas into readers without ever making them wonder why they should believe into them. They do so by presenting shoddy evidence of crazy (and to some folk, appealing) ideas that are central to the ideology that they're trying to spread. It's really common behavior these days with media in general actually (it's just that Breitbart doesn't  really have any other kind of substance to begin with). And I personally am not interested in dissecting this any further to you. If you're quoting journals which openly admit that their source is a source that they have to use google translate to understand to begin with, then there's something very, very wrong. It's not that google translate is bad, it's just that it occasionally gets things wrong. And to trust a _whole article_ that gets translated? Yikes.

[mumblemumble]

As I said, mis translating something about community service and rape is nearly impossible : and this immense BIAS on the left its a major problem : just today I had people saying at a fair that CNN was always right, and fox is always wrong : but this is being in an echo chamber, refusing to check other sources

Beyond that, LGBT get to show crap like a gay jesus fish with dick fish swimming into its asshole, why can't I do the same with mohammad in europe, without being jailed / beheaded?

Especially since theres so many muslims in jail, and they use jail to convert people. One guy actually DIED in jail after he was jailed for a YEAR due to putting bacon on a mosques door step.

Islam is incredibly hostile, and the issues with jail conversion, rape, molestation, removal of free speech, ect, is pretty much sharia law in practice, even if its not formally in law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weGxSWl5oA8

Oh also its not racism : its a bad, horribly flawed ideology. People criticize Christianity with no end, but call it "Islamophobia" if its islam. This isn't equal rights, this is demanding superiority while playing the victim, and this is INTOLERABLE if the people doing it themselves are brutal and violent, and causing damage.

Political correctness needs to die before it ends up killing more people.

[Kegereneku]

You have a bad case of egocentrism here mumble,
I only answered you more often because you are wrong more often. You wall of text don't help, I told you long ago you could be more concise.

Yes I do have some time for these discussions (but clearly less than you), but you are not worth much of my time anymore, in part because we have to explain you over and over again all sort of things that you keep "forgetting", pretending you weren't proven wrong when you were, asking for better proof when you don't post better one yourself...etc
ex: your fallacy? explained to you in others topics that you should remembers.
Your fallacy here: at this point you were not my interlocutor anymore, I was answering other people (whom I believe intelligent enough to see what I mean)
The topic of Breitbart? -> Your original query have been answered, answering 80% of that post would be even more out of topic than this.
No need to tell us you do research, we know but are skeptical about you doing it right.

The irony ?
The "Political correctness" you fight so much, is one of the reasons you (mumble) get to share your various form of bigotry, prejudice, bad propaganda and poorly researched belief, all without being banned or mocked.
You are a minority, and doing everything you claim to fight against, you are always claiming to be persecuted when you aren't, you are always asking for privilege geared against sub-group you don't like.

In conclusion Mumble, I took time to offer you more explanation about why I should stop bothering with you, in return please refrain from assuming my reasons.

Again, you are not entitled to have answers.
And don't believe yourself to be right just because people don't have the time (or want) to explain how wrong you are.

[mumblemumble]

Lets be VERY clear on your "position" keg.

You say I'm "ego centrist" which is a personal attack irrelevant to debate : a ego centrist could still be 100% correct, its off topic to call me it, and says NOTHING for the topic.

You say you "don't have time" to debate, but continue making off topic posts about criticisms of me so much as believing brietbart has any merit (Its not even in my main news consumption...) or that I'm egocentric. You still aren't making any real criticism on the debate, you are attacking THE lowest hanged fruit, and ignoring core arguments.

You do not address rape and molestation rates in Germany and Sweden (which highly correlate to immigrants, as well as reports showing its overwhelmingly immigrants)

You do not address the political correctness giving islam an advantage in these societies

You do not address connections between immigrants and ISIS

You call be a a bigot, and prejudice, without even knowing what the damn words mean.

HERE, let me help.

Bigot means to be intolerant of other opinions : and I'm tolerant of them, but I openly criticize ones that are dangerous. I'm less bigoted than antifa, BLM, and other groups, as these people actually ATTACK people they disagree with. So don't call me a bigot, you bigot. Heck, islam itself is far more bigoted, as it JAILS people who criticize it under sharia law or in some places in europe. So muslims are the bigots here.

prejudice means to pre-judge someone, without full information : and this frankly does not apply here : I am talking about GROUPS, and not explicitely pushing them on individuals. Prejudice would be saying a trump supporter is a redneck hick with a refridgerator IQ : even if you meet one, and they clearly have a higher one. (or are black : yes, black people support trump, and hate BLM, even though stating this openly would get them KILLED)

Also, you are right, I'm NOT entitled to an answer, you can continue being a dork making off topic posting, but you are contributing nothing to the discussion AT ALL.

If all you have is personal attacks and name calling, don't post anymore : I've been banned before for off topic posting, and these rules should apply to you as well, I at least TRY to make each post link into the topic. Its my topic, and I want DISCUSSION, not childish name calling or personal attacks, so stay out of my thread UNLESS you want to address core arguments which make up the bulk of my point, rather than namecall like a gradeschooler trying to shut me up.

And the far left is the extremist group of this time : antifa, BLM, Islamic aggression on many countries, and trying to divide us along race, sex, and other crap, while we ignore the takeover.

[Ramsis]

Let me be very clear on both of your positions at this point. You're both being ninnies who need to take a step back before I have to have fun passing out temp bans for attacks and harassment.

On one hand you're both right, on the other hand mumble you are literally known for kicking dust at people and crying victim to the point where the moderators more or less watch you like a hawk expecting the worst and Keg you're no stranger to twisting the knife to try and get a rise out of people. Both of you need to relax a tick, this is meant for conversations not tomfoolery and the second people start devolving into fights is when I question just how fast I can make the three clicks to temp-ban ya for a few days.

We have rules. Follow them.

[Alien :)]

the Government controls us with cereals

[mumblemumble]

I know this was removed from my signature but I think its worth noting that the supreme court decision protecting "hate speech" makes a very fine distinction between the USA and everywhere else in the world

Currently in america, short of ACTUAL calls to violence (such as serious calls to "gas da jews", or whatever else idiots call for), hate speech is considered not a thing. Theres senator talks to REMOVE political correctness in universities (may it be removed, and burn in hell) talk of the stuff in europe, and talk or terrorism across the world, which up till RECENTLY (the van attack that MAYBE killed 1 person) was only Islamic for the most part.

However, in Europe, people are being JAILED for saying Islam is bad, for teaching dogs to reacts to "gas the jews" as a crude joke, and theres a legitimate fear that, despite muslims raping women and children, bombing, stabbing, and causing other elements of chaos, that people CANNOT speak out against it

This to me shows Europe is no longer part of the free world : they do not have the right to free speech, as hate speech is a severe limitation of it.

Speech is absolutely critical, and in the end, even if I called someone the most dirty things in the book, spit vile, awful words at them, they are grownups and can refute whatever I say, or ignore it : limiting it brings in a massive potential for abuses, which is why you are seeing what I believe is the start of a European genocide over there. This all started BECAUSE censorship was a massive thing, BECAUSE the voice of european people could not ring out saying "WE DO NOT WANT IMMIGRANTS", because all who try end up IN JAIL.

Imagine if a man raped your daughter, and complaining about it got you thrown in jail for hate speech : is this moral? "hate speech" is a victim-less "crime", nobody is hurt by it, and the idea that it leads to violence is subjective : I could criticize anyone, and any whacko could go out and kill them because they are mentally ill, but that is not my fault, especially if I'm intellectually honest about, which I often try to be : I try and seperate out the different types of muslims, and muslims who are modern reformists, who SPEAK IN ENGLISH in mosques, and are not involved with terror should be permitted : however, mosques which are involved in terror like the FINSBURY MOSQUE, deserve the Imam to be drawn and quartered, and the mosque forcibly taken away by the state : Eventually a country MUST put itself above the "needs" or terrorists, or the country will be destroyed.

But that is a key distinction just to keep in mind folks : in many places people like keg WOULD BE ARRESTED if they said anything like what I say : but in the USA, we have freedom, freedom which has been robbed from them. And so I take with a crate of salt anything FROM europe, because I know at the end of the day they would risk their life to speak out : and this is ridiculous, that expressing your opinion on something would put you in danger. This is why I say YES, Europe has become a bit of a hell hole, and is currently NOT free, and free speech is NOT a thing there

Beyond that, you guys should review some of the stuff from the US senate hearing on free speech : they even touch on neo nazis, KKK, and truly vile groups : but they say that despite them being disgusting, vile, horrible, awful, that they should have the RIGHT to speak out, and they should have the RIGHT to express contrary views to others : and likewise, anyone pushing ANYTHING, has the OBLIGATION to answer questions : which has been a core problem of this thread, with accusations of bigotry, racism, and other crap flying about without any logical argument : its been the main strategy of the left, and its not working : call me a racist bigot, I don't care because I know I'm not, and I know you cannot make a concise argument for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atndeX-3Ggc

Remember, diversity matters, but diversity of OPINIONS are one of THE MOST important things.