Bionics in A17

Started by Mkok, June 25, 2017, 05:02:17 AM

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mumblemumble

The idea of surviving several gunshot wounds makes sense : some people can get shot lots of times to non vital areas and survive just fine, if with less blood in them

I also agree about the percentage based system : Xcom handled this nicely, where armor had a default block amount and weapons had a random range of damage to them as well : this meant that for instance, kevlar could potentially 100% block a pistol round without any trauma, but due to the randomness, it wasn't always reliable if the block occurred, or if the round slightly penetrated.

There was also code in place where excessive blows would still wear down the armor even if it didn't go through, so firing a mini-gun at someone with Kevlar wasn't completely useless, but would eventually chew through it.

This would be interesting, but would certainly need re-balancing : would also be interesting if maybe power armor could stop rounds, but would potentially leave bruised : imagine someone with a broken neck from being shot in the face with a sniper rifle, because the helmet blocked it, but the force made their neck snap

....also this has gone HORRIBLY  off topic, but its also good discussion.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

Toast

Quote from: Trylobyte on June 28, 2017, 04:37:35 PM

The rate at which 'sub-parts' (smaller parts of a major one, like fingers, toes, internal organs, etc) get damaged was increased dramatically between A16 and A17.  I hate to say it, but limbs coming off to high-powered weapons was always common - If you ever fought tribals with pila in A16 you'd know those things were capable of taking off an arm or a leg in one hit (though they got nerfed in A17).

I've definitely had colonists lose whole limbs before, just never at this horrifying rate. If it's not because of A17 changes, then is there a way to rename my colony "Unluckiest Bastards on the Rim"?

erdrik

#32
Quote from: Toast on June 28, 2017, 06:56:12 PM
Quote from: Trylobyte on June 28, 2017, 04:37:35 PM

The rate at which 'sub-parts' (smaller parts of a major one, like fingers, toes, internal organs, etc) get damaged was increased dramatically between A16 and A17.  I hate to say it, but limbs coming off to high-powered weapons was always common - If you ever fought tribals with pila in A16 you'd know those things were capable of taking off an arm or a leg in one hit (though they got nerfed in A17).

I've definitely had colonists lose whole limbs before, just never at this horrifying rate. If it's not because of A17 changes, then is there a way to rename my colony "Unluckiest Bastards on the Rim"?

I suspect its because of a "wealth of targets" issue.
Before when it was just the primary stuff that would get "regularly" shot out/cut off, there were fewer targets to hit so you didn't see amputations so much. But now there are far more targets and suddenly we are seeing more amputations? I haven't looked at the code, but to me that tells me once a hit has been determined the total "size" of amputate-able body parts greatly exceeds the total "size" of non amputate-able body parts.

I think I remember reading something about Tynan increasing body part size some time back?
Perhaps he incorrectly accounted for the quantity difference when deciding to include 'sub-parts' to the readily amputate-able list?

b0rsuk

The current system is detailed, but not necessarily even that realistic. I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars. It could be some kind of compromise, like no limb loss until at 50% health or lower. Yes, it's nice to quickly headshot an incoming enemy, but it cuts both ways, and the determining factor is random, almost completely out of your control.

Tynan normally favors gameplay over realism. In this case he's clinging to realistic a mechanic that is not especially fun. It boggles my mind. I guess he just knows no better, hasn't played story generating board games like Eldritch Horror and Robinson Cruzoe: Adventures on Cursed Island.

Aerial

Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:46:52 AM
The current system is detailed, but not necessarily even that realistic. I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars. It could be some kind of compromise, like no limb loss until at 50% health or lower. Yes, it's nice to quickly headshot an incoming enemy, but it cuts both ways, and the determining factor is random, almost completely out of your control.

Tynan normally favors gameplay over realism. In this case he's clinging to realistic a mechanic that is not especially fun. It boggles my mind. I guess he just knows no better, hasn't played story generating board games like Eldritch Horror and Robinson Cruzoe: Adventures on Cursed Island.

I don't want a simple HP system.  That would be so boring.  I like the detail in the current system, even if the implementation isn't quite there yet. 

I think changing how armor works would be a big step forward, i.e. armor blocks all damage below a certain per hit threshold but the armor takes damage over time, so a guy in power armor would be immune to squirrels, at least until he got swarmed by a hundred of them and they had time to wear down his armor enough to get to him.

I'd really like to see the weapon accuracy go way up and have the armor and damage mechanics fixed to make the results make sense. 

It would also be cool to have different types of armor that are better against different weapons.  A steel breastplate could protect better against arrows and pilas but not be great against guns, while a kevlar vest is really good against bullets but can be pierced by pilas, greatbows and swords, etc.

erdrik

#35
Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:26:23 AM
I don't want a simple HP system.  That would be so boring.  I like the detail in the current system, even if the implementation isn't quite there yet.  ...

Agreed. I love the current system. It may need balancing but I want it to stay.

Quote from: Aerial on June 29, 2017, 08:26:23 AM
...
I'd really like to see the weapon accuracy go way up and have the armor and damage mechanics fixed to make the results make sense. 
...

I would also like to see a separate visual effect for when an attack hits armor. Just so it is easier to tell mid combat which targets are armored. I mean its easy enough for power armor, but Armor Vests are more frequently encountered and can get hidden under Jackets and such. Which makes it difficult to identify the armored targets in a fight, without pausing and manually examining every enemy...
Also it would just add to the visuals of the game I think.

jamaicancastle

Quote from: erdrik on June 29, 2017, 09:46:20 AM
I would also like to see a separate visual effect for when an attack hits armor. Just so it is easier to tell mid combat which targets are armored. I mean its easy enough for power armor, but Armor Vests are more frequently encountered and can get hidden under Jackets and such. Which makes it difficult to identify the armored targets in a fight, without pausing and manually examining every enemy...
A visual effect could get kind of busy (what would it even look like? sparks?) but some kind of notification would be nice. There was a mod in A16 I think that added a bunch of new text motes during combat, so you'd see feedback on things like hits, misses, damage... it would be nice to have feedback like "armor blocked" or "dodged" so you'd know whether your tactics were working or not.

b0rsuk

There is a notification when a bullet is absorbed by armor. It's easiest to observe when sniping centipedes. Every now and then you will hear a pickaxe sound and the centipede will jerk backwards slightly without emitting the pain sound.

Mehni

The visual effect for striking armor is already in the game. It's a subtle white flash.

It looks a bit like the "component broken down" icon and comes and goes away quickly.

More on-topic, bionics have definitely gotten rarer in A17 and losing a limb is a lot more common. On the other hand, prosthetics got buffed a bit. Overall, it's pretty much guaranteed to have a colony of cripples after a couple of years. I assume we're supposed to swap out colonists like underwear and not care about the stories they tell? It doesn't seem right to me, whichever way I look at it.

erdrik

Quote from: Mehni on June 29, 2017, 02:09:50 PM
The visual effect for striking armor is already in the game. It's a subtle white flash.

It looks a bit like the "component broken down" icon and comes and goes away quickly.
...
Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:55:15 PM
There is a notification when a bullet is absorbed by armor. It's easiest to observe when sniping centipedes. Every now and then you will hear a pickaxe sound and the centipede will jerk backwards slightly without emitting the pain sound.

Huh... Ive never noticed it before... I guess Ill have to keep an eye out.
Still, perhaps it should be made more noticeable? I mean feedback is suppose to be noticed, and Im sure Im not the only one that failed to notice it...

Snafu_RW

"Dodged" is certainly vanilla, altho you have to pay attn to see it

WRT power armour attack via squirrels I agree that it's currently clumsy (as is the power armour), but think of it as the animals attacking the /joints/: this is the standard heavy armour weakness IRL (as well as multiple scifi/fantasy fiction). Clumsiness from wearing a heavy suit would impact (hah!) upon attack effectiveness vs small quick opponents such as squirrels. IMO power armour should allow an automatic 'stomp' melee attack to alleviate these sorts of encounters vs small animals, while still being able to be swarmed (ie not completely invulnerable)

Completely agree WRT the rebalance of injuries suggestions BTW; legs, arms, fingers etc being shot/bitten/torn off so frequently is irritating unless you install a prosthetics bench mod, or allow more surgery options :(
Dom 8-)

Cimanyd

Quote from: b0rsuk on June 29, 2017, 01:46:52 AM
I would like to try a simpler system, like the one from very early Rimworld alphas, where characters had just HP bars.

In A6, the first alpha after this change was made, there were no bionics or prosthetics. Lost arms and eyes were permanent, and a lost leg meant permanent incapacitation. A7 brought bionics/prosthetics to make the damage less permanent, and peg legs meant losing a leg wasn't as bad as dying even if you didn't have a replacement. Expanding the system to include other body parts would solve the problem most of this thread is discussing, while keeping damage taken between the two extremes of "permanent" and "heals up in a few days".

Or if the occasional missing finger is supposed to be a story element, like scars would be if they ever actually happened, then they need to have less of an effect on manipulation (like how missing a leg doesn't mean you're paralyzed anymore). Or manipulation needs to have less of an effect on certain work stats.
Some sort of psychic wave has swept over the landscape. Your colonists are okay, but...
It seems many of the scythers in the area have been driven insane.

b0rsuk

Then I guess simple HP bar was only in the Kickstarter pitch video ?

Cimanyd

Quote from: b0rsuk on June 30, 2017, 04:07:23 AM
Then I guess simple HP bar was only in the Kickstarter pitch video ?

It must have been HP pre-A6, but A6 is when I started playing so I don't know how the old system worked exactly.
Some sort of psychic wave has swept over the landscape. Your colonists are okay, but...
It seems many of the scythers in the area have been driven insane.

NiftyAxolotl

I think I like Vlad0mi3r's suggestions.

Craftable simple prosthetics for disasters.
Gardening gloves and steel-toed boots for the daily rough and tumble.
Goggles for +1 social  8)

Maybe there should be a limb status between "will heal" and "torn off". "Ruined"?