Should political discussions be banned on these forums?

Started by Fluffy (l2032), June 26, 2017, 04:46:46 AM

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Should political discussions be banned on these forums?

Yes
19 (42.2%)
No
20 (44.4%)
No opinion
6 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 45

mellowautomata

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 26, 2017, 06:33:39 PM,
Discussion (of any sort) aren't the problem. Beside it would be hard, if not impossible to ban a specific range without encroaching upon good topic.

1. It's not impossible and has been done before. Check the second post by Fluffy, which already gave two examples of biggest gaming communities (Steam and WoW).

2. Talking about only costs while ignoring benefits is pointless. There are benefits of not allowing political topics at all. For one, moderators would likely have easier time after people adjust to it and for two, some of these topics deal with issues that touch people personally and that might disencourage those people from, say, creating good topics in these forums. And let's give a third as well: this sort of stuff can lead to degradation of reputation of a gaming community in general. I've seen some people here writing certain posts that kind of make me wonder what would happen if they were far more vocal.

DaemonDeathAngel

Quote from: Fluffy (l2032) on June 26, 2017, 04:50:25 AM
For reference;

Would this infringe on free speech rights?
https://www.quora.com/Is-moderation-in-forums-violating-Americans-right-to-free-speech

Answer; no.

Do other forums do this?
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=4045-USHJ-3810
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/2228414323
Answer; both Steam and WoW, probably the two single largest gaming communities, already do so. I haven't looked at others.

I would like to state, WoW administrators dont give two shits about political discussion. Have you ever payed attention to trade chat for any length of time? Give it 10 to 20 minutes tops, and theres a political argument, nothing comes of it

Fluffy (l2032)

Quote from: mumblemumble on June 27, 2017, 10:25:04 PM
You might say that fluffy, but honestly I care not what you say, I care about what rule is put in place

If it was indeed a blanket statement, would you then not agree your statement about corporations being people would ALSO be a political statement that should be banned? What about calling it ridiculous?

These are both political statements too, and would fall under your ban you are proposing. Yet you aren't even leading by example.
Fair enough, I care about the rule put into place (or not put into place) as well. You're right, that statement would be political, and would not be allowed. I'm not leading by example because there is no ban yet, and I was replying to another poster.

That said, let's keep this on topic.

Listen1

May I add another option? I've been living in a strange political situation on Brazil that a single sentence can start a Riot in the big cities, or at least small fights between two political parties. Banning the discussion is something that would only be considered in extreme cases (Like Tynan post an update notice and people start talking about "Political/Religious Stuff")

I'd vote for the option of flagging the discussion with "Sensitive Topic" or something like that. I for one jumped into many discussions, but skipped many others since they were too time consuming.

Also, I like the way the devs are handling many cases right now, splitting the topics and etc. It may lose some sense, but I believe it is one of the better ways.

TL;DR - Make a Flag for sensitive content, keep the rest as it is.

Kegereneku

Quote from: mellowautomata on June 28, 2017, 04:29:29 AM
Quote from: Kegereneku on June 26, 2017, 06:33:39 PM,
Discussion (of any sort) aren't the problem. Beside it would be hard, if not impossible to ban a specific range without encroaching upon good topic.

1. It's not impossible and has been done before.

1. I can agree with your first but that's only because I believe said "ban" more like a promise of stricter Moderation. Many community who forbid X topic rarely do. Nobody report it to the moderator and when those do remark it, it only lead to ban for reasons that apply even to politically-minded forum.
Discussing politic isn't bad, letting some person believe it mean "I can call for hate against people I don't like", that is bad.

2. Talking about only costs while ignoring benefits is pointless.
That's not me quoting you, that's my answer. There are benefit allowing political topic just the same. You do not want to discourage someone making a topic about a Game with politically oriented context (or say criticizing a game for its cheap/bad use of politics)
The Moderator have the same jobs as always, no matter the topic: keep the discussion civil and fun for everybody.

My third is a wonder about what it would give if we replaced "political discussion" in the polls by the name of some of those vocal troublemaer (like that arrogant Kegereneku, not that I have anything against him).
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

mellowautomata

Quote from: DaemonDeathAngel on June 28, 2017, 06:16:42 AM
I would like to state, WoW administrators dont give two shits about political discussion. Have you ever payed attention to trade chat for any length of time? Give it 10 to 20 minutes tops, and theres a political argument, nothing comes of it

That depends on whenever it is reported or not. And it is different at times — I do remember that back before presidential elections in US, /2 was full of political stuff and nobody seemed to get banned. But I've also seen guildies getting banned for engaging into them at other times.

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 03:10:00 PM
Discussing politic isn't bad, letting some person believe it mean "I can call for hate against people I don't like", that is bad.

Problem with this approach is that there will be likely lot of differences between what people think should be moderated and what not. So by moderating specific messages will likely not work out well because others will interpret arbitrarily however they want. To some degree, this risk also exists with moderating political topics completely, but it's still much easier in comparison to moderating only certain kinds of replies that belong to the category of "political".

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 03:10:00 PM
You do not want to discourage someone making a topic about a Game with politically oriented context (or say criticizing a game for its cheap/bad use of politics)

Honestly, I doubt that there is much of a danger to this. It's game-related discussion. Take in for example a forum I am a regular user of; KVR forum. As I mentioned earlier in my first post to this thread, they have an actual subforum for political topics, "Hyde Park Corner". Does that mean that they do not have political topics at all outside? Quite on the contrary. For example copyright laws are often discussed there, critiqued or defended and so on, outside of Hyde Park Corner. Despite the topic being political, it is very relevant to music production, hence it's allowed elsewhere. Same principle can be used here: political topics that belong completely to offtopic and have no relation to Ludeon themselves, could be prohibited.

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 03:10:00 PM
The Moderator have the same jobs as always, no matter the topic: keep the discussion civil and fun for everybody.

This might sound nitpicking, but rules have this exact function and they can be changed if it seen that changing the rules serve the community better.

Kegereneku

Quote from: mellowautomata on June 28, 2017, 03:57:35 PMProblem with this approach is that there will be likely lot of differences between what people think should be moderated and what not.

Just like there is lot of difference between what "political discussion" people will agree to see bannedmoderated away and what they will find frustrating to not be able to mention.

Moderators don't have the time to check if any discussion is getting too political and if they did it would risk being too overbearing, leading to complaint if no one can't even discuss the news between person who are mature and rational enough to appreciate it.

In the end it would only average as stricter rules and I'm all for it. It's not because a topic fuel great discussion that it doesn't have limit we should never cross.
I think we do actually agree on this, so I won't bore you with forced antagonism.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

mumblemumble

Maybe instead we could get a forum thread JUST for politics, so politics is potentially removed from "unwanted places" and is still allowed?

Also to clarify the comment on freedom of speech, its not that fluffy is advocating the removal of my first amendment right, its that my ability to EXERCISE it would be removed here

A right is pointless if it cannot be exercised, which is why I'm saying he would be removing that freedom : currently I have a freedom to post such things on here, and this freedom to post  this here would be stripped away with this rule. This doesn't mean my first amendment right is completely revoked but it DOES mean my overall "freedom" is diminished within the scope of this website.

Either way though, banning political discussion on the website would be an absolute nightmare : people getting posts edited, removed, possibly banned for legit discussion, and disagreements abound about what is / is not political, or if it was relevant to a topic if it indeed can be viewed. Heck, hypothetically if rimworld got banned in a country, debating THAT would be political, but also incredibly on topic...

This slope is super slippery guys.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

mellowautomata

#23
Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 05:01:38 PM
Just like there is lot of difference between what "political discussion" people will agree to see bannedmoderated away and what they will find frustrating to not be able to mention.

As I said earlier, I do not think that this will be a significant problem because there already exists communities which fare just fine (such as KVR example). It's much easier to consider general categories with some quantifiable measure than it is to consider completely qualitative categories. And, there is no need to not allow game related talk that might touch politics one way or another. That talk should be still about the game itself, not about politics. The immigration topic for example, has obviously no relation to this game, to Ludeon, to gaming industry. It's just one person who is seeking inflammatory political debates with a clear purpose. It's very easy to distinguish such a topic from a topics that clearly are about the game, for example.

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 05:01:38 PM
Moderators don't have the time to check if any discussion is getting too political and if they did it would risk being too overbearing, leading to complaint if no one can't even discuss the news between person who are mature and rational enough to appreciate it.
Report function is useful here to direct their attention where it's due. And if these rational people want to discuss politics, then there's always PM's and other forums where they can do that.

Also let me make it clear: I do not think that you have to enforce the rule with a heavy banhammer. Topics can be deleted only, temporary bans that last for 1 day can be given and after multiple attempts, these bans could extend more. Some games, such as Path of Exile, have (mostly) good policy for muting for example: first offense you will be muted for just one day. Within 6 months, if you get muted again, that will be extended and the period again resets (so within next 6 months, if you get muted again, that time will increase and it will reset again et cetera). 6 months sounds kind of steep though, but even 1 month period will probably be enough.

Kegereneku

Do you really want us to count and classify topic which do not have a explicit relation to
a)video game
b)Rimworld/Ludeon
c)Ludeon game
Here? Isn't it the whole point of an OFF-TOPIC forum?

Private Message do not let new persons join in the discussion and doesn't let other people just read it and learn new point of view. That's why we create all sort of topic here and ignore all other topics that do not interest ourselves like we do all the time.
But if you still notice a problem to difficult to ignore? Well yes the Report function is useful, in fact I would say it's all that's needed:
Step one: Identify the problem making you annoyed by (say) political discussion
Step two: click report, explaining concisely the reason it make you want to quit the forum
Step three: Let the Moderator decide if there's something wrong.

I did it myself, and it did work. I would do it again but from me it might look biased.
"Sam Starfall joined your colony"
"Sam Starfall left your colony with all your valuable"
-------
Write an Event
[Story] Write an ending ! (endless included)
[Story] Imagine a Storyteller !

mellowautomata

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 06:14:24 PM
Do you really want us to count and classify topic which do not have a explicit relation to
a)video game
b)Rimworld/Ludeon
c)Ludeon game
Here? Isn't it the whole point of an OFF-TOPIC forum?

...and are political in nature. Which most of topics right now as I'm checking in offtopic, are not.

Quote from: Kegereneku on June 28, 2017, 06:14:24 PM
Private Message do not let new persons join in the discussion and doesn't let other people just read it and learn new point of view. That's why we create all sort of topic here and ignore all other topics that do not interest ourselves like we do all the time.
But if you still notice a problem to difficult to ignore? Well yes the Report function is useful, in fact I would say it's all that's needed:
Step one: Identify the problem making you annoyed by (say) political discussion
Step two: click report, explaining concisely the reason it make you want to quit the forum
Step three: Let the Moderator decide if there's something wrong.

I did it myself, and it did work. I would do it again but from me it might look biased.

I'm not going to report anyone just because their topic is completely political when it's not explicitly stated, that political topics are not allowed. I might think the post is made by a cryptofascist promoting his ideas in obscure way (which is very often the way they do it), the moderator might also agree with this, but the moderator can't legitimately just ban the person and/or delete the topic / post on those grounds. If political discussions are banned all the same, then there's no real need to wonder whenever it's a cryptofash promoting hatred against humanity in obscure way, because it's still political.

And as for people not being able to join the discussion, well, that's why you wanna do that discussion elsewhere then. There's numerous of places where you can have political discussions freely to your hearts desire. This is a forum for an audience of a specific game. There is no innate need to allow completely political discussions here that are irrelevant to the game, it doesn't really limit anyones freedom of speech because, again, this isn't the necessary place for such discussions. Of course, that is left to the discretion of the people who actually get to decide what this place is or isn't, but there is no principal issue here with not allowing political discussion.

DaemonDeathAngel

This entire thing boils down to this. If you cant keep your cool, and refrain from being a whiney little asshat when someone else has a differing opinion from you, then you need to leave the internet, or society in general, until a point which you can be respectful of others rights to their own opinions, and can have an open discussion involving somethig which effects everyone, calmly.

Be an adult, not an entitled little nancy boy/girl/what ever the fuck you are.

mumblemumble

#27
Quote from: DaemonDeathAngel on June 28, 2017, 06:59:10 PM
This entire thing boils down to this. If you cant keep your cool, and refrain from being a whiney little asshat when someone else has a differing opinion from you, then you need to leave the internet, or society in general, until a point which you can be respectful of others rights to their own opinions, and can have an open discussion involving somethig which effects everyone, calmly.

Be an adult, not an entitled little nancy boy/girl/what ever the fuck you are.
I would like to add onto that, don't enter into a discussion if you refuse to read what other people say : this is a huge problem, where people ignore other peoples valid points then act like they are wrong.

If you want to debate, DEBATE

if you are going to half ass it, get lost.

this has been an issue for a long time on here, people accusing others of racism, sexism, homophobia, or any others in a laundry list of labels as an argument, and then refusing to address the points brought forward.

You cannot say someone has an invalid point if you refuse to address the point brought forward.
Why to people worry about following their heart? Its lodged in your chest, you won't accidentally leave it behind.

-----

Its bad because reasons, and if you don't know the reasons, you are horrible. You cannot ask what the reasons are or else you doubt it. But the reasons are irrefutable. Logic.

mellowautomata

Quote from: DaemonDeathAngel on June 28, 2017, 06:59:10 PM
This entire thing boils down to this. If you cant keep your cool, and refrain from being a whiney little asshat when someone else has a differing opinion from you, then you need to leave the internet, or society in general, until a point which you can be respectful of others rights to their own opinions, and can have an open discussion involving somethig which effects everyone, calmly.

Be an adult, not an entitled little nancy boy/girl/what ever the fuck you are.

Sounds to me like you're having a hard time with people in this thread who have an opinion that differs from your own opinion

DaemonDeathAngel

Quote from: mellowautomata on June 28, 2017, 07:29:07 PM
Quote from: DaemonDeathAngel on June 28, 2017, 06:59:10 PM
This entire thing boils down to this. If you cant keep your cool, and refrain from being a whiney little asshat when someone else has a differing opinion from you, then you need to leave the internet, or society in general, until a point which you can be respectful of others rights to their own opinions, and can have an open discussion involving somethig which effects everyone, calmly.

Be an adult, not an entitled little nancy boy/girl/what ever the fuck you are.

Sounds to me like you're having a hard time with people in this thread who have an opinion that differs from your own opinion

Not at all, because if you have an obscenely retarded opinion, I tend to drop the discussion, or ignore you, specifically when it pertains to polotics or religion.

If you have an opinion, and viable information to back said opinion, I am more than willing to listen and discuss my thoughts on it.

That being said, if you are going to be a fuckhead and be all "KEK, I HAZ OPINION BECAUSE OTHERS TOLD ME TO, AND MY FRIENDS DO EET TEW" Then Im going to have to be forced to call you an idiot that cant think for themselves, and ignore you.

Seeing as I have a pretty damn good understanding of how the US Government works, seeing as I worked for them in multiple fields.