[1.0] Psychology (2018-11-18)

[Mst]

Great, thanks! Both are new for me so have no idea what to expect.
Decided to also add Therapy to them. Guess it's ok as I already saw here somebody mentioning it.

[nyhm7]

[HugsLib][ERR] Psychology caused an exception during OnDefsLoaded: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at Psychology.PsychologyBase.DefsLoaded () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at HugsLib.HugsLibController.OnDefsLoaded () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
Verse.Log:Error(String)
HugsLib.Utils.ModLogger:ReportException(Exception, String, Boolean, String)
HugsLib.HugsLibController:OnDefsLoaded()
HugsLib.HugsLibController:LoadReloadInitialize()
Verse.LongEventHandler:RunEventFromAnotherThread(Action)
Verse.LongEventHandler:<UpdateCurrentAsynchronousEvent>m__1()

Anyone know whats causing this? Ive tried disabling some mods i suspect of interfering with it, but it just refuses to work.

[wwWraith]

I think that "Faction imprisoned me" debuff needs to be reworked somehow, or even completely removed. Think about its logic:
1. We capture some prisoner. And he doesn't worry much about it.
2. Finally we recruit him. I believe it means that we managed to convince him that we are friends, really nice, trustworthy and such. But contrary to that, now he suddenly starts to hate us.

[MasterBabble]

Update your 7zip.

Yup fixed it, thank you!

[System.Linq]

I think that "Faction imprisoned me" debuff needs to be reworked somehow, or even completely removed. Think about its logic:
1. We capture some prisoner. And he doesn't worry much about it.
2. Finally we recruit him. I believe it means that we managed to convince him that we are friends, really nice, trustworthy and such. But contrary to that, now he suddenly starts to hate us.

Think about its logic:
1. A soldier is part of a raid on your compound. He is downed in battle and made your Prisoner of War.
2. You tell him he cannot return home, and he will not be allowed to leave his cell unless he joins you.
3. He spends a long time rotting in your prisons refusing to accept, perhaps waiting for his faction to rescue him. However, eventually he sees he has no other choice and accepts.
4. Despite the fact that he is willing to turn over a new leaf, it is still awkward for him to interact with the people who held him there against his will and who he was formerly enemies with, until he grows accustomed to his new life.

[wwWraith]

1. We saved his life and treated his wounds instead of letting him to die on the field or just executing or harvesting his organs or something even worse.
2. We tell him that our home is better that his former home. And we can prove it. Probably some more people already realized it.
3. He spends a long time relaxing in our "special guests apartments", surrounded by finest pieces of art and enjoying the best available^tm meals instead of struggling to survive with his former "allies" who lost the fight, left him on the battlefield and actually don't mind a bit managing to rescue him.
4. He shouldn't have problems interacting with people who were not directly involved in his imprisonment (i.e. those who were not wardens; and wardens very probably befriended him already). He realizes that our people are not that bad as he was told (probably it's only his former faction was thinking that we are enemies while we were just forced to defend ourselves). Why he have to hate them after being released? And how can he hate a whole faction when he is a part of it himself?

I think that a more logical and realistic way would be to make this debuf with several stages and start when he was captured. Yes, it will decrease a chance to recruit him right now, but each recruitment (and/or friendly chatting) attempt should have a chance to decrease the severity of that debuf. So after some time, if he was treated well, he will forgot his hate. And there still will be probability of recruiting him before that debuf was completely eliminated, so it will behave like those "interaction problems".

[System.Linq]

British/American prisoners in WW1/2 were also captured and their wounds treated by the Germans. That didn't mean they were going to abandon their country and join the Germans because they weren't executed or harvested (or because they preached about German superiority). If anything, the fact that your colony does/might do that should be more incentive not to join, because it's clearly a colony full of monsters.

The debuff goes away after two seasons. There's your decreasing severity. It's not illogical or unrealistic; there is going to be tension between someone who was captured from an enemy faction and then recruited, until they get acclimated and become "one of the guys."

[wwWraith]

British/American prisoners in WW1/2 were also captured and their wounds treated by the Germans. That didn't mean they were going to abandon their country and join the Germans because they weren't executed or harvested (or because they preached about German superiority).

Japan prisoners in WW2 were also captured and their wounds treated by the Americans. After that Japans did abandon their country and actually associated themselves with Americans because they were really ashamed of losing the fight and being captured. In fact the Americans used the threat of letting their relatives know about their capturing to effectively recruit them.

If anything, the fact that your colony does/might do that should be more incentive not to join, because it's clearly a colony full of monsters.

No, it's any other colony might be the colony of monsters, but our people never even thought about such terrible things (at least that's what we are trying to assure our prisoners).

The debuff goes away after two seasons. There's your decreasing severity. It's not illogical or unrealistic; there is going to be tension between someone who was captured from an enemy faction and then recruited, until they get acclimated and become "one of the guys."

The difference is that I suggested it to start immediately after capturing rather than after releasing, and then decrease it gradually like -40 -> -20 -> -10 -> -5 -> -2 -> 0 rather than just -40 -> 0.

Also consider that recruiters are very probably have decently high Social skill, which I believe means that they know something in psychology to estimate and use the most effective approaches to different prisoners, not only childish "join us or rot here".

What I am trying to show is that there are enough reasons for different behaviors. Your variant may be suitable for some cases but not for everyone and every time. Even not for majority of them. So it should be more detailed, probably involving psyches to determine reactions. Or just forget about it if it becomes too complicated.

[System.Linq]

Japan prisoners in WW2 were also captured and their wounds treated by the Americans. After that Japans did abandon their country and actually associated themselves with Americans because they were really ashamed of losing the fight and being captured. In fact the Americans used the threat of letting their relatives know about their capturing to effectively recruit them.

[citation needed] but Rimworld raiders don't have a Japanese honor-based culture.

No, it's any other colony might be the colony of monsters, but our people never even thought about such terrible things (at least that's what we are trying to assure our prisoners).

Says who? The game does not allow you to specify what you say to prisoners.

The difference is that I suggested it to start immediately after capturing rather than after releasing, and then decrease it gradually like -40 -> -20 -> -10 -> -5 -> -2 -> 0 rather than just -40 -> 0.

It is already gradual.

What I am trying to show is that there are enough reasons for different behaviors. Your variant may be suitable for some cases but not for everyone and every time. Even not for majority of them. So it should be more detailed, probably involving psyches to determine reactions. Or just forget about it if it becomes too complicated.

I'm forgetting about it. Mod it yourself if you want to see how insane your suggestion is.

[sevrun]

Threw this into my last playthrough and I gotta say, at first I didn't much care for it.  I'm impressed by the amount of work put into it and the depth it offers aspects of Rimworld OTHER than shooting people in the face, but it just didn't seem like it was for me.

Had almost specifically designed a couple to be together through Prep Carefully, and spent the first season watching them ignore each other, second season finally hook up...  And then they had one VERY bad conversation, swung from +40 opinions to -100.  Break-up naturally followed.  This kinda annoyed me but the rest of the colony was doing SO well, beautiful defensive position, plenty of crop/pasture land, etc.  So instead of scrapping it and starting over, I let it ride.  Another two seasons of ignoring or snarking at each other, and I'm barely paying attention to them at this point until I get the alert that they've hooked back up.

  It really does grow on you, especially if you run a colony for a couple years.  I'd never really thought about just how simple the vanilla social system really is until I watched the byplay as my colony grew.  It's not flashy, bombs and lasers and fancy armors...  But it really does seem to be a DEEP piece of work.

Thank you.

[crusader2010]

Hi,
It seems that Psychology doesn't work well with PrepareCarefully, Hospitality, Rainbeau's More Trait Slots, Rainbeau's Consolidated Traits (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=36687.0).

What should be the mod order for these AND Psychology?

Thanks!

[bigheadzach]

Hi,
It seems that Psychology doesn't work well with PrepareCarefully, Hospitality, Rainbeau's More Trait Slots, Rainbeau's Consolidated Traits (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=36687.0).

What should be the mod order for these AND Psychology?

Thanks!

Since I have all those, what kind of problems do you have? I'll share my order when I get home.

[wwWraith]

crusader2010, I'm using all these mods, in alphabetical order And didn't saw any incompatibilities. Can you clarify what is your problem?

[Hadley]

crusader2010, I'm using all these mods, in alphabetical order And didn't saw any incompatibilities. Can you clarify what is your problem?

Can't get it to work either. PrepareCarefully doesn't even let me click the Button in the Character-Creation.

[crusader2010]

One of the issues that I saw was that the button for "Prepare carefully" doesn't do anything when clicked. Because of this I'm not using Psychology at all. I'm also curios if it conflicts with any of the Rainbeau's mods related to traits and such. If you have a working mod order I'll happily try it