Addressing Melee

[TheMeInTeam]

Colonists are going to get injured whether they're fighting melee or ranged. If they lose limbs, you can replace those with bionic body parts. And that just comes down to making a lot of money.

Not so much, currently.  Bionics have become MUCH rarer.  The bottleneck is now much more likely to be simple unavailability.

Even prosthetics are no gimme.  The 8% efficiency hit on them sucks, but on the plus side prosthetics don't have the same fingers being targeted issue so you're capped at "only" 16% efficiency loss from arms/legs using them.

There are ways to fight ranged w/o taking damage, and in many early game melee situations it is possible to melee raiders who can only fight back with fists, 3v1 or 4v1, such that you're not going to get anything more than bruises.  Given how the game's damage is tuned right now and the availability for counterplay to it, damage avoidance is absolutely crucial, though bruising is okay since it doesn't get infected.

[Jibbles]

I personally like melee.  With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal.  My main issue is armor and shield belts.  Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time.  It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.

Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way.  You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off.  They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.

[RemingtonRyder]

Not so much, currently.  Bionics have become MUCH rarer.  The bottleneck is now much more likely to be simple unavailability.

I sent a caravan out and got two bionic legs and a simple prosthetic arm. Granted, I had to visit two outlander settlements, not just one, but it's certainly possible to luck into getting them.

[Bozobub]

And?  That's still MUCH rarer than previously.  People with wooden PCs also are likely to be less enthused by solutions involving caravans ^^' .

[Trylobyte]

I personally like melee.  With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal.  My main issue is armor and shield belts.  Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time.  It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.

Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way.  You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off.  They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.

This is all well and good, but I believe the problem people have with melee isn't that it's ineffective, it's that it's more work for less effectiveness compared to ranged.  There are higher gear requirements, more strategic thought involved, and a whole, whole lot more micro demanded if you want to go heavy into melee, and you wind up with something that just doesn't work as well in as many situations as if you'd put those same resources, planning, and effort into a gun line or killbox. 

Remember, a good melee fighter doesn't just need a good melee weapon, he also needs good armor and a shield belt.  Properly handled, a gun line only needs a good weapon - They can get by with cheap or even no armor because there are a lot of ways to reduce the odds of them getting hit (and they can't use shield belts anyway).  Then once you get into a fight you need to use tactics and planning in order to get the raid to split up so your melee guys have a chance, while a gun line can often just directly engage them or wait for the raid to come to them.  Then after that you need to micro the melee fighters, while the ranged guys will shoot on their own and don't need a whole lot of supervision.  By the time it's over, your melee guys will come out on top but will inevitably get hurt (no armor stops 100% of an attack) and have wounds that need tending, which is extra downtime.  Your gun line on the other hand, if you've built the defenses right, probably has minimal damage and you just need to repair a few things.

And this is just for average raids.  Once you get a big, wealthy colony and start seeing raids with over a hundred enemies (as I have in modded games) then you can forget about melee altogether.  Nothing short of divine intervention will save them then.

[Jibbles]

You've made some good points and I agree with you on most of it.  What makes a good melee fighter does indeed require proper gear, which is why I listed managing armor as the issue for me as it can be annoying.  I don't know what the outcome would be if they were able to jump out a melee battle with ease. They're kind of locked in once it happens. But having to micro them is just part of the fun.  It's strategy and a lot of people just don't how to use them.  Most players on youtube put more thought into making bills than fighting a raid.  They don't really make a strategy beyond the killbox which seems strange to me.

That's the beauty in the combat so far.  If you don't want to micro then make a killbox.  If you do then cut back on security builds.  But if you just beef up the melee fighters then it goes both ways for AI and the player.  So you might have to micro the shooters just as much if it's not implemented right.

I guess an important aspect to consider is what Tynan thinks an average colony size should be and how much strategy should be involved in raids. The average player probably won't be dealing with raids that have 100+ enemies ha.  I think more technology should be thrown in at that point since your colony is most likely advanced and wealthy.  Maybe have war machines and other traps for dealing with bigger raids.  That may be a bad suggestion but I feel like it's a lack of something else combatting bigger raids.  But you're right. There is a point where it gets too involved as the raids stack up and you got bunch of melee fighters on your hand.

Some major changes I noticed in my current play-through is that the incendiary launchers are accurate now which is pretty darn effective.  Mortars can actually target a large group without using 30 shells ☺ I was able to sneak shots with assault rifles to shoot down mechs without them firing at me since they can't lock their target on the pawn in time. The only gun I was able to do that with in A16 was the pistol. So the ease of using guns in most situations may be an issue as well.

[TheMeInTeam]

I personally like melee.  With the right gear and weapons they're very lethal.  My main issue is armor and shield belts.  Since they degrade while equipped regardless of being in combat or not it's expensive to have them equipped the whole time.  It's tedious and sometimes not possible to gear up when that raid arrives if they aren't already equipped. Maybe not have the tattered apparel debuff when it comes to armor may help out some as well.

Melees involve micro managing in combat if you want to be effective and I like it that way.  You start thinking of strategies such as breaking the raid apart so you can pick them off.  They aren't effective in some areas, manhunter packs, mechanoids etc and that's when I equip those pawns with stuff like grenades and shotguns, or just throw them on mortars if you want to go that route.

If you're using grenades, shotguns, and mortars you can use them in lieu of melee and do just as well.

That's the problem with melee.  It's a fun little minigame but offers no coverage that you don't already get simply by staying alive against things that absolutely destroy melee, like mechanoids and higher difficulty level sieges.

[Reinhark]

Melee will be always be useless until new combat melee AI gets patched in.(or have some option to switch combat AI from micro-intensive to more automatic, like the ones we already have for melee-auto attack AI when not recruited) Currently melee is only viable option through early game with small enemy numbers.

I am not saying new melee AI will fix everything, but it will give opportunity for modders to actually balance the damned thing for the lategame. 

[Vlad0mi3r]

Melee will be always be useless until new combat melee AI gets patched in.(or have some option to switch combat AI from micro-intensive to more automatic, like the ones we already have for melee-auto attack AI when not recruited) Currently melee is only viable option through early game with small enemy numbers.

I am not saying new melee AI will fix everything, but it will give opportunity for modders to actually balance the damned thing for the lategame.

I don't agree that Melee is useless late game. As a stand alone relying on melee is not the way to go but it sure does compliment a firing line when things get heavy. Being able to step melee pawns with good armour and weapons up to assist when raiders/man hunters have reached your firing line can make the difference.

My current caravan crew consists of 8 pawns, 5 ranged (2 sniper rifle, 1 assault rifle, 2 pulse rifles) and 3 Melee. As you don't get the chance to prep your defences when out caravanning (sometimes you do but not often) the Melee team can help draw fire and deal with animal rushes. Yes you have to micro manage it for best effect but I wouldn't leave home without them.