Mortars: any good?

[NiftyAxolotl]

It seems like mortars are currently best against Very Large Raids. Without weakening that purpose, how could they be made useful against raids of 15-20? As inaccurate, Area of Effect weapons (even now, they miss most shots), they will always have effectiveness scaling with the number of targets. Anything done with the power or cost to make them useful against medium raids will make them completely nutty against big raids.

(Aside: I generally do tribal starts, and I get all my mortars from siege attempts that I clobber with my alpaca hordes. Does anyone else do that?)

[DariusWolfe]

If my ideas were implemented, I think they'd be considerably less effective (in terms of damage) against moving groups. Using the area denial and panic effects I suggested early on in the thread would still allow them to be effective in shaping the battle against these groups, and devastating if you can pin them down to a single location, but otherwise you wouldn't be as capable of eradicating large groups with mortar fire.

[Listy]

Would increasing accuracy over time help?

Here's some random numbers to illustrate the idea, and not final numbers, but even as I say this I know someone will fly off the handle and say "I'm wrong and here's why":
Rnd 1: say 50% accuracy
Rnd 2: +10%, so 60% total accuracy
Rnd 3: +10%, so 70% accuracy

And so forth.
This could be explained by ranging in, it would also mean that long drawn out engagements (IE: agaisnt larger enemy groups) are easier, but how many sieges do you get form tribes? It'd also allow the mortars to become more dangerous.

I Say this because in my earlier use against the sap the first rounded landed bang on target in the middle of the group, and not a lot happened. Damage should be down agaisnt high end enemies with Power armour and shields, but only a couple of hostiles had that level of protection.

I would not even as a cheaper system I didn't build mortars for quite some time until everything else my base needed had been finished.

[b0rsuk]

• Implementing single mortar with different shell types would lead to more experimentation among players, and would enable exotic mortar shells like Doomsday Shell.
  
• Manually setting targets is more accurate than leaving pawns on auto. Why not make mortar operators lead moving targets ?
  
• The deadlier you make mortars, the more dangerous sieges will become. People already complain that you must build under a mountain to survive sieges (which is not true). Building sparse bases with separate houses also works. Striking quickly also works. Shooting your own mortars also works. But either way a mortar barrage should be survivable.
  
  Two mortar tips (exploits ?)
  
  1. Mortars act like IED traps with bait. Enemies will come to attack them in melee, and they explode, even unloaded. And it's currently the only way to get an EMP IED trap.
  
  2. You can throw resources at the problem to improve rate of fire. Most of the downtime is due to a pawn waiting at a mortar to reload. You can build more mortars than you have operators. You can fire a salvo and send them to already loaded mortars. This is really not so hard to accomplish considering you can acquire 2 mortars from each siege.

[Vlad0mi3r]

My Mortar park consists of 2 EMP, 2 standard and 1 Incendiary.

The idea of generic mortar different ammo types would save space and as mortars are not considered pretty to look at it would be good if they didn't take up as much space.

My EMP mortars are the most critical for me as I use them to take care of downed ships (Poison and Psychic).

I think the tweaks from A16 to A17 were good anything more could start to be unbalancing.

[Snafu_RW]

FWIW I just read thru this thread & most of my mortar concerns have been answered above

   
• Include an optional loader spot to make reloading faster
• Include an optional spotter (maybe if they hold fire they can focus) to increase accuracy - a way to (mis)use shoddy sniper rifles?
• Include some sort of training requirement for the gunner: science is good (to increase accuracy) & maybe ToT speed when adjusting aim

I emphasise /improvised!/ The current setup STM to be based on the old WW2-style man-carried mortar tubes, which ideally needed a 3-man team: gunner, spotter & loader. They could function perfectly well /after setup/ at a reduced RoF & accuracy with only 1 man (min 2 were needed for effective  - read 'timely' IG - mobile setup because of the mass transported), but were far more effective with teams of 3 /if no direct LoS/. Ideally there'd be a squad/platoon commander too (to handle comms & prioritise targets), but IG /you/ are their commander..

Remember, /improvised/ mortars (like improvised turrets) are not cannon; they're ballistic-only artillery. They need a spotter to observe fall of shot & correct as appropriate. IRA (I use the term generically, including all paramilitary forces on either side) used them to reasonable effect in their attacks (mortars improvised from gas cylinders) in the ~'65-'95 'Troubles' <hah!> with several effective hits, including Downing St. They used vans with cut-out roofs to minimise transportation of mass problems & set them off remotely, but were effective nonetheless.. /against fixed targets!/

WRT the shells I completely agree with Tynan's proposed idea of having 1 mortar 'building' & different ammo: far more realistic!

WRT the scarcity of chemfuel for HE/incendiary rounds (prior to deep drilling/refinery), why can't we harvest boomalopes/boomrats for their fuel? That was what they were bred for according to lore..

[Vlad0mi3r]

WRT the scarcity of chemfuel for HE/incendiary rounds (prior to deep drilling/refinery), why can't we harvest boomalopes/boomrats for their fuel? That was what they were bred for according to lore..

Off topic I know but maybe milking them for chemfuel??

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I only use my mortars against Alphabeavers

[erdrik]

WRT the scarcity of chemfuel for HE/incendiary rounds (prior to deep drilling/refinery), why can't we harvest boomalopes/boomrats for their fuel? That was what they were bred for according to lore..

Off topic I know but maybe milking them for chemfuel??

I actually like the harvest idea better.
But make it a research tech. A tech that allows you to slaughter Boomalopes/rats without causing them to detonate, and makes it so chemfuel will drop in small amounts when you slaughter them.

[Vlad0mi3r]

I actually like the harvest idea better.
But make it a research tech. A tech that allows you to slaughter Boomalopes/rats without causing them to detonate, and makes it so chemfuel will drop in small amounts when you slaughter them.

Yep I could see how that could work. I just thought it would be funny if you had all these small amounts of chemfuel everywhere (Like you end up with milk left in the field) and you get a raid that sets everything on fire. Left over chemfuel going off, boom rats and Boomalopes blowing up because of the fires.

Randy would love it I'm sure 

[SpaceDorf]

I actually like the harvest idea better.
But make it a research tech. A tech that allows you to slaughter Boomalopes/rats without causing them to detonate, and makes it so chemfuel will drop in small amounts when you slaughter them.

Yep I could see how that could work. I just thought it would be funny if you had all these small amounts of chemfuel everywhere (Like you end up with milk left in the field) and you get a raid that sets everything on fire. Left over chemfuel going off, boom rats and Boomalopes blowing up because of the fires.

Randy would love it I'm sure 

There is a Mod for that


I just thought of another thing :

a mortar emplacement. A smaller version of the mortars, similiar to the manned mortars known from Movies.
With a similiar range to rocket launchers or sniper rifles. And able to fire over walls like the Big Mortars.
Still using Shells. Also expand the shell concept to rocket launchers. I really hate the concept of one-shot weapons.

[corestandeven]

My two cents, largely in line with others have said:

- Building one mortar but having different ammo types would be much better than building muiltple types of mortar gun.
- accuracy as it is now is fine in my opinion. The accuracy at the moment means they are not overpowered, but when they do strike successfully they can be devastating.
- As suggested above, accuracy and reload time should improve over multiple shots to same fixed location. If you have to aim elsewhere then the accuracy and reload time should return to normal.

Some additional suggested changes:
- Change name of current mortar to 'Artillery'. Im not a military expert like others on the forum but the current gun fires and acts more like artillery than a mortar imo.
- Create a new weapon for pawns to carry which is a true mortar (i.e. high arc, long range weapon but much less range than the artillery, less powerful than artillery, not overly accurate unless the pawn has exceptional Shooting Skill). In terms of how the gun would work with the game mechanics just think frag grenades but firing over longer distance.
- Rival factions that are seiging the settlement are a bit dumb if under current mortar fire. if they are preparing and you start bombing the hell out of them first, they just hover there awaiting their doom. I'm not sure how best to address this, because if they were to flee in terror or panic as suggested above then current mortars are pretty worthless after the first shot unless their accuracy is increased, but then that will make them too powerful.     

[SpaceDorf]

My two cents, largely in line with others have said:

- Building one mortar but having different ammo types would be much better than building muiltple types of mortar gun.
- accuracy as it is now is fine in my opinion. The accuracy at the moment means they are not overpowered, but when they do strike successfully they can be devastating.
- As suggested above, accuracy and reload time should improve over multiple shots to same fixed location. If you have to aim elsewhere then the accuracy and reload time should return to normal.

Some additional suggested changes:
- Change name of current mortar to 'Artillery'. Im not a military expert like others on the forum but the current gun fires and acts more like artillery than a mortar imo.
- Create a new weapon for pawns to carry which is a true mortar (i.e. high arc, long range weapon but much less range than the artillery, less powerful than artillery, not overly accurate unless the pawn has exceptional Shooting Skill). In terms of how the gun would work with the game mechanics just think frag grenades but firing over longer distance.
- Rival factions that are seiging the settlement are a bit dumb if under current mortar fire. if they are preparing and you start bombing the hell out of them first, they just hover there awaiting their doom. I'm not sure how best to address this, because if they were to flee in terror or panic as suggested above then current mortars are pretty worthless after the first shot unless their accuracy is increased, but then that will make them too powerful.   

Pretty good suggestions.

Siegers should attack when taking to many casualties, before they flee.
The good thing about Mortars is, that they spread out the damage done to the enemy so damage enough at the same time, they rather flee than attack.
That is one of the viable tactics against sieges anyway .. just hurt the siegers, but don't kill them, so you don't get attacked by the remaining healthy ones but rather create a a bunch of wounded and crippled enemies.

[b0rsuk]

   

• Include an optional spotter (maybe if they hold fire they can focus) to increase accuracy - a way to (mis)use shoddy sniper rifles?

Suggestions that involve a spotter would make it play much like a variant of sniper rifle... and you literally brought a sniper rifle into that. This is odd, because no doubt a scope or binoculars is easier to obtain than a whole sniper rifle. For better or worse, having no visual contact with enemy is one of things that makes mortars distinct relative to other combat mechanics.

Mortars are relatively interesting because they're usable by people who are less physically capable or can't aim a gun very well. It gives these pawns something to do to defend the colony. A spotter would naturally compete with snipers. He would need relatively good movement to run away, but inability to shoot. This could make mortars even more niche because there would be even fewer colonists who should use them.

Finally, realism. The kind of realism you describe is fine in military units, which commonly consist of hundreds and more soldiers. Diverting 3, or even 2 people to mortar duty is a completely different story in a game which tends to top around 15.

Maybe if you could link more mortars to the same spotter. Otherwise, it would be terrifying to use more than 1 mortar at once. You would have to appoint volunteers to serve as spotters.

Mortar spotters is something raider AI would have a very hard time understanding, but perhaps this is what this game needs. Mortars that are good against raiders, but relatively poor against player colony.

[SpaceDorf]

Realism in military Units also means, everybody who is able to communicate with the mortar/artillery team is a spotter.
Artillery means fire support from afar and never engages the enemy on their own, but supports a front trop, which in this case also acts as a spotter.
To weaken the enemy before a charge, to cover a retreat or to take out targets to heavy or big for the infantry.

So pawns having contact with the enemy should greatly increase the accuracy of your mortars ..
the negative side-effect is allready included.
You need pawns in contact with the enemy ..

And finally I think mortars should benefit from some skill .. be it crafting, construction or science .. like all other weapons do.
Or speaking realism : one guy manning a targetting console, aiming and firing the connected mortars .. and some other pawn/s feed shells into the mortars ..