[A17] Crappy Mod Management ( now includes solutions and apologies )

Started by SpaceDorf, October 04, 2017, 08:42:03 PM

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SpaceDorf

I post this following Rant knowingly on the Bug Forum instead of the Suggestion Forum.

Because this is not a Suggestion but a Statement of Facts that are driving me insane.

EdB's Modlist, ModListBackup, ModSwitch, Mod-E are just the latest, the ones I remember from the top of my head, Mods that have the sole purpose of Managing other Mods inside of Rimworld.

And doing a better Job at it than even Steam Workshop ( this is not about my oppinion on steam .. still a fact )

The Mod community is triving I never had so many mods than in A17 and even with A18 slowly creeping closer like winter I see a new mod pop up every day. I am working on 3 myself at the moment and maybe the get even published one day.

So there are a few simple tweaks the Mod Management of Rimworld sorely needs.

Back to the facts :

( and the remaining Problem : )

Auto-Restart --still-- Sucks !
Please add an option to delay that. The Okay button feels very lonely and useless on that info screen he would surely be happy over a buddy with the name of "Later".

I understand that it is a technical necessity to restart the game after the modlist has changed.
But please only when I am done. Block Loading and Starting a new game if you have to but don't take the choice from me when I want to restart the game.
Not even Windows does this after changing its modlist .. making updates.

Except freedom of choice I found seven other reasons why Auto-Restart Sucks.
And always keep in mind, every restart takes several minutes, lets say 10 seconds per mod..

Reason One : Human Failure. I hit the Escape Key by accident or clicked the close button, while trying to scroll down the Mod Description. ( Happens more often to me, than I am comfortable to admit )

Reason Two : Technical Failure. Somehow the Mod-Menu gets messed up when a faulty mod is selected, or a folder cannot be opened. For whatever reason I am forced to leave the menu because it is no longer working.

Reason Three : I want to change the language or another Game Option ( or even Mod Options ) that require a restart as well after I changed the mod-list. Log Options or DevMode are a good example too ..

Reason Four : Cleaning the Modfolder from multiple copies of the same mod. Reentering the Mod Menu to reload the shown mods.

Reason Five : Multi-Tasking Error. The game runs in the background and the menu is left by accident, because a Keystroke gets send to the wrong menu.

Reason Six : Switching between the Mod Menu and the Debug Log, while hunting errors.

Reason Seven : Because I said please ?

-- halfway solved --
Burying the Config and Savegames somewhere in AppData Sucks !
Everybody does it is no valid arguement.
Only because Millions of Flies eat crap .. why should I ?
Even If I bought multiple copies of the game I could not run them parallel because the overwrote each other !
If I want to use different modlists, I have to wait several minutes to change ingame .. or use a mod, or copy and paste the modconfig.xml myself .. or like some of us do write the modconfig myself.
I can't play different Alphas of Rimworld.
Why ? Let me have a second, third .. seventh copy of Rimworld on my Disk .. who cares ?
Put the Config Files in the Game Folder where they belong.
It would even make it easier for inexperienced users to send in save games and logfiles.
Rimworld is a work of love, not a TrippleA game. Show us. Be better than those guys.


the command line parameter does work .. at least at work  ::)
I hope I can convince my machine at home ..


--solved--
Taking the crown of suck :
Clearing the SINGLE, HIDDEN, NOT AUTOMATICALLY BACKUPPED Modlist completely because some mods where incompatible with each other.
I could be okay with that, IF the game would NOT present me with an exact Logfile that tells me which Mods where incompatible and why.
With this awesome feature I could maybe solve the problem myself with just a few clicks by disabling the culprits.

But no .. after several minutes of ( maybe involuntary ) startup my work just vanishes.
.. on the black hole scale of sucking this could only be surpased if Uwe Boll reimagined Michael Bays Transformers which then get remastered by George Lucas. For good measure put in Rick Astley as after Credit Scene.


Sometimes even four-eyes are not enough.

QuoteShow us. Be better than those guys.
Mission Accomplished  :o


===== Matter of QoL or Death ====

Finally one simple request : I can't remember how often I tried to move the selection cursor in the Mod Menu with the help of the Cursor Keys .. that would be really nice to have.

I remember having read the statement that Tynan does not want to cobble together features, but only wants to add complete sets .. so would you please .. please complete the mod-installation set ?
Or do you plan to overhaul modding for Rimworld in a way that would change it radically ?

I am sorry if I came on a bit strong, but five days of work on the perfect modlist for a new game is kind of annyoing. Those pawns have some high expectations on them now.

So if there are some solid arguments to invalidate the facts I delivered please let me know.

=== EDIT ===

Made some changes, because you did .. 
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

BlackSmokeDMax

I think I can get behind all of that except this part:

Quote from: SpaceDorf on October 04, 2017, 08:42:03 PM
Burying the Config and Savegames somewhere in AppData Sucks !
Everybody does it is no valid arguement.
Only because Millions of Flies eat crap .. why should I ?
Even If I bought multiple copies of the game I could not run them parallel because the overwrote each other !
If I want to use different modlists, I have to wait several minutes to change ingame .. or use a mod, or copy and paste the modconfig.xml myself .. or like some of us do write the modconfig myself.
I can't play different Alphas of Rimworld.
Why ? Let me have a second, third .. seventh copy of Rimworld on my Disk .. who cares ?
Put the Config Files in the Game Folder where they belong.
It would even make it easier for inexperienced users to send in save games and logfiles.
Rimworld is a work of love, not a TrippleA game. Show us. Be better than those guys.

What is stopping you from using the already setup system of using multiple version on one computer with the -savedatafolder="locationhere" switch. I have multiple setups of both the same and different alphas all on one computer with no issue.

I only use the standard appdata location for the Steam install of the game. Perhaps that doesn't work with the Steam version? I have never tried that, so maybe that needs work?

I just know the DRM free version works like a charm. Each of my Rimworld installs (different alphas/modsetups/vanilla/etc.) has their own self contained folder- game, data, config, mods, everything. Then I have a shortcut on my desktop for each of those setups. I would imagine you could even get away with having one Rimworld folder with every mod you use, and then multiple config folders, each with their own shortcut. That just seems too messy when I have plenty of drive space.

SpaceDorf

#2
I have the DRM Free Version of Rimworld but the switch never worked reliable for me.
I have several installations of Rimworld as well, but all the folders do for me is shorten the load time for my
devkit version of Rimworld.

But thank you for reminding me of Reason 8 why auto restart sucks :)
Auto-Restarts Ignores the -savedatafolder sometimes.


I did activate my Steam Key, but only used it once or twice to download a mod from steam.

=== EDIT ===

I have access to another computer tomorow and would like to try the switch again.
Could you PM me the exact Syntax you are using, maybe I missed something.
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

BlackSmokeDMax

I'll put it here, just in case it helps someone else as well.

This example is for my testing setup for the EpicOmega modpack. I'll list steps I use to set this up:

1. Copy Rimworld folder to desktop (that is where this example is located, works anywhere else just as well)
2. Rename folder to something as short as possible, yet still descriptive enough to know what it is. (in this example it is "RWEpic")
3. Within "RWEpic" folder, right click on the Rimworld exe file and select copy.
4. Back at desktop, right-click and paste a shortcut to the just copied file. I then rename the shortcut to match its install folder (in this example "RWEpic")
5. So, I now have a Folder and Shortcut both named RWEpic
5. Within RWEpic folder, make and name a new folder where you will store your data/config. (in my example the new folder is named "EpicData")
6. Double click that folder so that Windows Explorer is looking into the empty folder.
7. Go into address bar in windows explorer and right click and select "Copy address as Text"
8. Back at desktop, Right click on RWEpic shortcut and select properties.
9. In Target field, go to end of what is already present, leaving quotes in place, add a space and then the switch -savedatafolder=
10. I then put a " mark and paste that address I had previously copied, followed by a closing "
11. Here is the current line in the target field of the shortcut at this point:

"C:\Users\USERNAME\Desktop\RWEpic\RimWorld1557Win.exe" -savedatafolder="C:\Users\USERNAME\Desktop\RWEpic\EpicData"

12. Click "OK" to save everything.
13. I then launch the game with the shortcut which will allow the game to create the folder structure inside my "EpicData" data folder.
14. I set my normal game options.. "Turn off plant sway", "Set Volumes", Turn off Tutorial, etc.
15. exit game
16. Go into RWEpic folder, then into EpicData folder to make sure all folders are there. If they aren't, a mistake was made during creation of shortcut. More than a couple times I have forgotten to do something correctly and have had to re-make that shortcut, whether it was a bad copy paste, a misspelling of the switch, any other little thing.
17. Now I load all my mods into the mod folder.
18. Relaunch game and go into mods and set all mods in correct order.
19. Exit game.
20. Relaunch game and play.

Haven't had nary a problem with this method.

SpaceDorf

okay .. absolute paths worked one time now ..
the guide to portable rimworld also promised relative paths

I stress test this later today.
Which would mark the easiest solution as resolved .. lets talk about the true problems then :)
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

CannibarRechter

#5
> Clearing the SINGLE, HIDDEN, NOT AUTOMATICALLY BACKUPPED Modlist completely because ....

cough, cough

You know there is a configuration option for this right in the options menu, right?

The game is configured correctly for this. By default, it does the right thing for non-modders. For modders, the right thing is to configure it into the don't-reset-mode, and then analyze. Mod-users, though, many of them couldn't read the error codes if their lives depended on it, and wouldn't know how to get the game back working again because of it.

> Re: mod reloading

On this topic, I do wish there was a more expedited path to reload all mods than restarting the game. I know that's not what you were asking for, but, you know: to tack on to the subject.
CR All Mods and Tools Download Link
CR Total Texture Overhaul : Gives RimWorld a Natural Feel
CR Moddable: make RimWorld more moddable.
CR CompFX: display dynamic effects over RimWorld objects

SpaceDorf

#6
Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on October 04, 2017, 10:13:49 PM
I'll put it here, just in case it helps someone else as well.

This is the moment where I am pissed again.
It worked great. Until it didn't.
After a system reboot or two .. it started ignoring settings from the game options.
Language and Screen settings for example.
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

BlackSmokeDMax

You are welcome!

I think I will re-post it. Went looking for a good spot, and I guess the "how to install Rimworld" thread is as good as any. I'd put it in its own thread but I suspect that would get buried pretty quickly.

SpaceDorf

That would be stupid, except you would get someone to pin it for you ..
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

ison

So if I understood everything correctly the only remaining problem is that the game forces the player to restart game after closing the mods menu.

Maybe the solution is simply to restart game only after loading a savefile or starting a new game rather than immediately after closing the mods menu. Just adding a "Later" button seems hacky, because I don't see any reason why anyone would want to change the mods, and then try playing the game without reloading the assets - it will always cause bugs.

SpaceDorf

Thank you for answering and asking.
I apologize again for my tendency to use strong words.

Quote from: ison on November 10, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
So if I understood everything correctly the only remaining problem is that the game forces the player to restart game after closing the mods menu.

Mainly, yes.
There is also the sugestion of using Cursor Keys to Navigate the Mod Menu.
And you might move the "auto-reses modlist on crash" option out of the devmode options, so bats like me can find it easier  ;D

Quote from: ison on November 10, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
Maybe the solution is simply to restart game only after loading a savefile or starting a new game rather than immediately after closing the mods menu. Just adding a "Later" button seems hacky, because I don't see any reason why anyone would want to change the mods, and then try playing the game without reloading the assets - it will always cause bugs.

The inclusion of  a single "Later" Button would be hacky indeed and I am aware that playing without restart is a bad Idea. All I want is to remove the punishment from human error while working on the modlist.
( even Windows has the decency to ask if it is a good time to restart after an important installation )

I think the most sensible solution was by a mod in A15 or A16, sadly I can't remember which.
The Modlist could be closed and opened but popped a message that a restart is recommended and disabled the Load Game and Start Game Button with a red warning, which is pretty close to your own reasoning.

==== EDIT ====

I found another reason against automatic restart : What if I just want to exit the game after changing the modlist ?
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker