Construction success chance penalties are really harsh

Started by YokoZar, October 12, 2017, 04:27:24 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Bozobub

Yeah, I fully agree.  It makes sense to me both in terms of the simulation AND gameplay (not even remotely the same thing  ;)).  It would also, imo, be a pretty damn big QoL improvement; this very issue causes me MUCH stress in RimWorld!  In fact, it's the most common limiter of my play:  me getting pissed about someone perma-gimped over losing a finger, when I have experience with exactly that, often enough, but also the constant, erosive "gimpening" of my pawns in general.  Grrrrr... >:(

This is one of the few rather fundamental changes I currently support in the "vanilla" game, rather than as a mod.  It simply makes that much more sense to me than the current model.
Thanks, belgord!

SpaceDorf

So whats your suggestion here ?

What I read out of the Dialog so far :

1.) Scars and limbloss effects should reduce over time.
meaning pain should go away and manipulation can be restored. ( to a point )

2.) the limbloss should come with some experience loss to affected skills ( relearn to handle the new body )

3.) I just made this one up, but installing Cybernetic Limbs into a healthy pawn should have similiar effects. ( some loss of xp, some time until full usability is reached )

4.) Construction success chance penalties aren't that bad, but ressource loss is ..
Maxim 1   : Pillage, then burn
Maxim 37 : There is no overkill. There is only open fire and reload.
Rule 34 of Rimworld :There is a mod for that.
Avatar Made by Chickenplucker

Bolgfred

One idea I have to make construction fail less annoying, could be to separate skill and perception.

theres a basic chance to fail and loose material based on construction skill as there is already(If you have no idea what youre doing, you cut your wood logs wrong/break things etc..).
second would be based on perception/maniplation, to to fail building, but only loosing time.
"The earth has only been lent to us,
but no one has said anything about returning."
-J.R. Van Devil

sadpickle

I second the notion that injuries should result in tasks taking longer, but not failing more often. Failure should be tied to skill.

If I tried to make a bookcase IRL, I would fail (or it would be really shitty and lopsided). Not because of my health (which is perfect) but because I don't know the first thing about carpentry. If I was a brilliant carpenter but down to 1 arm, I am fairly certain I could make a perfect bookcase. It would just take me longer than a person with 2 arms.

Snafu_RW

Quote from: sadpickle on October 17, 2017, 05:13:32 AM
I second the notion that injuries should result in tasks taking longer, but not failing more often. Failure should be tied to skill.

If I tried to make a bookcase IRL, I would fail (or it would be really shitty and lopsided). Not because of my health (which is perfect) but because I don't know the first thing about carpentry. If I was a brilliant carpenter but down to 1 arm, I am fairly certain I could make a perfect bookcase. It would just take me longer than a person with 2 arms.
^This!!
Dom 8-)

Bozobub

#20
Exactly.  Furthermore, as I mentioned above, some crafts just seem to end up whittling away at their practitioners, over time. Both blacksmithing and glassblowing (especially) are notorious for wounding artisans, often quite severely.

As a perfect example, telling me Dale Chihuly (relatively famous glass artist) is "less capable" because he lost an *eye* (although not to glassblowing, itself) is quite simply obvious hogwash.  Yes, he eventually accumulated enough injuries, that he simply couldn't do the actual glassblowing himself, but that never affected his success rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Chihuly
http://www.chihuly.com/

I can supply no end of examples; for many other dangerous crafts, as well.
Thanks, belgord!

Evillee

Be a one armed construction master, getting ready to start, get hammer, prepare to nail in the nail, can't hold the nail since I have one hand.

sadpickle

Quote from: Evillee on October 17, 2017, 09:12:23 PM
Be a one armed construction master, getting ready to start, get hammer, prepare to nail in the nail, can't hold the nail since I have one hand.
For something like that, the simplest method is to make a starter "hole", basically a small divot the nail will rest in. This is how you hammer small nails that are too tiny to hold.

Andy_Dandy

It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?

sadpickle

Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
We all WANT to keep our pawns healthy; the fact is implants are super-rare in vanilla and it's really easy to get gibbed in a fight. No one is arguing that there shouldn't be some sort of malus for injuries. What's really annoying is losing a finger and suffering a 10% reduction. Even if it was a thumb, that seems severe. It's not a simple matter of zero fingers = zero manipulation. People adapt.

Andy_Dandy

I disagree it's too harsh. In my opinion it's at a reasonable level, but then again I really love this game for not holding your hand.

erdrik

Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?
1.
If the only purpose of implants was to fix the disadvantages of losing limbs then they wouldn't give bonuses that are beyond human capabilities.

Because they DO give super human capabilities( and can be applied to even healthy colonists) it can be assumed the design intent is to give the superhuman capabilities, not keeping your pawns healthy.

2.
You are very much underestimating the value of TIME.
To say nothing of how much of an impact scars and missing limbs currently have on social interactions.

TheMeInTeam

Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?

You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty.  One does not imply the other.

Bozobub

If it constantly annoys you, it crosses the line from "game" to "unpaid job".
Thanks, belgord!

Andy_Dandy

#29
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on October 18, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on October 18, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
It's a good thing it's annoying, because if not you as a player would not bother. What's the value of implants or keeping your pawns healthy if it really doesen't matter that much?

You seem to be confusing annoyance and difficulty.  One does not imply the other.

No, the annoyance makes you want to prevent it from happening, and makes you care for it not to happen. It also makes you concider not using your master constructer if he is permanently or for the time being has worse then 50% manipulation. I don't want another solution that makes me care less. Removing the wasting of ressources would just be punishing in time consumption, making me not care too much.

To be clear, I don't find the mechanic annoying. The annoyance comes if you choose to ignore the consequences of the mechanic or have to do so (no other constructors). Annoyance in the meaning of not playing optimally, not annoyance like in "I hate this mechanic". But it's all jolly good for gameplay in every way. Nothing micro intensive what so ever about this one, just a pure pluss for the game, and an example of the great detail in mechanics this game has.