Eliminate predators

Started by Shurp, December 20, 2017, 08:10:18 PM

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Granitecosmos

Quote from: CannibarRechter on December 22, 2017, 08:23:05 AM
"The Gene Wars in 2057 were rife with mechanites that changed animal behavior, turning ordinary fauna against humans as a matter of course. Why and how these mechanites made their way to some Rim settlement planets has not yet been determined, but alas for our unfortunate refugees, the Rim World is one of those planets. Looking back in history, there are many lessons to be learned about meddling with animal biology."

Link to source or it's not canon.

Quote from: Bolgfred on December 22, 2017, 08:58:49 AM
I don't understand the problem with predators.

...

As I use colony manager animals get automaticly marked for hunting, so no more need for micro and with animals even a grizzly ain't a problem.

We're talking about vanilla. No mods.

CannibarRechter

> Link to source or it's not canon (sic).

So a quick update to the game encyclopedia with this bit of text would close this issue for you, then? RIGHT?

The point I am making here is that "suspension of disbelief" arguments are frequently disingenuous. They are used as leverage to lobby in favor of the user's personal preference. As soon as we admit the truth: that this merely a personal preference--and not one shared by many posters at all--it becomes quickly evident that what one should do is use the tools made available to you: make a mod or get a mod. But let's stop insisting that it's some kid of game flaw. That's just silly.

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Granitecosmos

Quote from: CannibarRechter on December 22, 2017, 10:34:09 AM
So a quick update to the game encyclopedia with this bit of text would close this issue for you, then?

Anything that isn't in here is not canon. That document is made by the devs themselves and is pretty much the lore of the RimWorld universe. Anything else, like your lore snippet, can be made up by anyone. Hell, I could just make a small lore snippet myself, canceling yours out entirely. By definition it would be as valid as yours.

Quote from: CannibarRechter on December 22, 2017, 10:34:09 AM
But let's stop insisting that it's some kid of game flaw.

Quote from: Granitecosmos on December 22, 2017, 08:10:42 AM
Approaching from a gameplay perspective, carnivores hunting colonists without warning is almost as bullshit as meteorites instakilling colonists or hurricanes spawning on top of a colonist. It's not fun. The reason I say "almost" is only because players can check every inch of their map for predators and hunt them down. Does it solve the problem? Yes. Is it extremely micromanagement-heavy? Yes. Is it fun? No.

...

Events that have catastrophical consequences without direct player agency are not fun.

I'd say having a wolf attacking and killing your colonist out of the blue is a game flaw exactly because it could be avoided by forcing the player to check the whole map every in-game day for predators then hunting them to extinction. Forcing players to either do extremely tedious and unfun manual map checks or shaft them via carnivores hunting their colonists without warning is a game flaw.

Want a good example that is pretty much the same thing but with a proper warning? The "mad animal" event. When a squirrel or hare or an elephant (or any animal, really) turns manhunter. It's one animal, just like a carnivore hunting. It attacks a colonist, just like a carnivore hunting. The only difference is that the manhunter will only down the colonist while a hunting animal actively seeks to kill and consume. Why do we have an alert for this before the animal is even in sight range of a colonist but not for colonists being hunted? Answer that.

Scrabbling

The suggestion in this thread was "Eliminate predators" respectively "Add a game option to eliminate predators". It was not "There should be a warning if a colonist is hunted by a predator".

Granitecosmos

Quote from: Scrabbling on December 22, 2017, 12:06:07 PM
The suggestion in this thread was "Eliminate predators" respectively "Add a game option to eliminate predators". It was not "There should be a warning if a colonist is hunted by a predator".

OP's problem is:
Quote from: Shurp on December 20, 2017, 08:10:18 PM
There's nothing fun about predators ambushing pawns.

The reason this is true is because no warning is given. If manhunter packs weren't declared to the player via a warning, OP would have a problem with that too. It's the same thing.

OP has no problem with the "maddened animal" event because the game warns him beforehand. Predators choose their prey when their hunger meter is low enough; it doesn't matter whether the prey is on the other side of the map or not. For this aspect it's literally the same as predators hunting; one animal, chosen from the ones already on the map, decides to attack a colonist. Yet OP has no problem with that. The only difference is the warning. Logic dictates a warning for OP when predators want to hunt his pawns would solve his problem.

Therefore my posts contribute to the conversation and your aforementioned point is moot.

Scrabbling

The OP stated his suggestion pretty clearly. If you think is problem is better solved another way (which I completely agree with) you might state that instead of arguing why predators attacking humans is wrong in general under the assumption that everyone knows that you are NOT proposing to eliminate predators / forbid them to hunt humans.

Granitecosmos

Quote from: Scrabbling on December 22, 2017, 12:46:36 PM
If you think is problem is better solved another way (which I completely agree with) you might state that...

My second post in this thread already did this by describing the main problem being the lack of a warning.

Quote from: Scrabbling on December 22, 2017, 12:46:36 PM
...instead of arguing why predators attacking humans is wrong in general

My first post was aimed at telling you about you forgetting something about that topic you yourself have brought up. My second post's first half was about yet another thing you forgot when you made your point, but that was about estimated NPC colony sizes. My third and the first half of my fourth post was about telling you that you cannot just add lore and declare it as the truth when official lore exists. Other than my first post, no other posts of mine in this thread discussed the topic you mention. It's you who tries to mention it yet again when I cleary have dropped it since it has no more to do with the problem at hand.

Right now all I'm saying is the game would benefit from providing a warning to the player whenever one of their colonists is a target for a predator. Do we agree on this or do we not? And no more derailing, please.

SpaceDorf

Yes this would be my favorite  solution.
Because at the moment a hunting predator is a silent death sentence for its prey.

Treat it like another manhunter event but don't turn the animal into a suicidal berserker.

Let the poor animal break of its attack when its hurting to much
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RemingtonRyder

Another way of getting rid of foxes is, surprisingly, get your own predator. I got lucky with a self-taming event and a grizzly bear joined. Every now and then he will venture out and hunt down foxes. I guess he really doesn't like rice.

Shurp

Quote from: Scrabbling on December 22, 2017, 12:46:36 PM
The OP stated his suggestion pretty clearly. If you think is problem is better solved another way (which I completely agree with) you might state that instead of arguing why predators attacking humans is wrong in general under the assumption that everyone knows that you are NOT proposing to eliminate predators / forbid them to hunt humans.

Speaking as the OP... I've come to recognize that getting a warning about a predator coming for my pawns may also be acceptable.  I've downloaded Hunting Alert and I'm waiting to see if it works for me. 

And I concede that the lack of realism of a fox attacking my pawn is not a good argument against it... maybe all the animals on Rimworld are rabid, who knows.  But it not being *fun* because once he gets jumped there's not a lot I can do, and there's no (vanilla) appropriate way to prepare in advance, unless I start building forts around all my mining sites and forbidding colonists from leaving until I can check if the coast is clear...

...maybe taming a predator is an option though, I'll also keep that in mind.  But first I'll see if the warning mod does the trick.
If you give an annoying colonist a parka before banishing him to the ice sheet you'll only get a -3 penalty instead of -5.

And don't forget that the pirates chasing a refugee are often better recruits than the refugee is.

Songleaves

Quote from: Bolgfred on December 22, 2017, 08:58:49 AM
As it takes 1-2 shots until they revenge

Is this influenced by difficulty setting? I've never seen it take more than 1 shot before a predator declares revenge.

patoka

Quote from: Songleaves on December 23, 2017, 03:29:47 AM
Quote from: Bolgfred on December 22, 2017, 08:58:49 AM
As it takes 1-2 shots until they revenge
Is this influenced by difficulty setting? I've never seen it take more than 1 shot before a predator declares revenge.
here, too. a single shot or hit of any weapon is enough for revenge by predators.

my two cents: i like the hunting alert solution, it should be in vanilla
but i also like the wildlife tab. it should also be in vanilla
surely you dont need to rebutcher corpses that you already half butchered if you leave the table to smoke a joint real quick?

Yoshida Keiji

In my opinion, if you get one of your colonists attacked by a predator, it means that you are a BAD PLAYER. Any decent person should always keep check of their perimeters, or build a wall.

CannibarRechter

Ooh, bold. And red. And all caps. A bid confrontational, wouldn't you say?
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Granitecosmos

Quote from: Yoshida Keiji on December 25, 2017, 10:42:57 AM
In my opinion, if you get one of your colonists attacked by a predator, it means that you are a BAD PLAYER. Any decent person should always keep check of their perimeters, or build a wall.

Players could indeed just keep track of their colonists all the time. But that'd mean cycling through all the colonists every 5 minutes. Now imagine a colony with 15 people. Ckecking on every one of them , making sure no predators are near them. It's not fun, it's tedious.

So people just exterminate every predator instead. But when you're playing on bigger maps, this means thoroughly searching through the mapevery in-game day. Which is again not fun but tedious.

So people just download mods to fix it by either making the game give them a warning wteh it happens or making the game output a list of every animal on the map for easier predator extermination. It's not about skill, it's about most people not having that extra 1 hour they could spare from their daily freetime just to avoid it. The countermeasure isn't even skill-dependent, it's just a time-hog. And people don't like that.

Quote from: CannibarRechter on December 25, 2017, 11:46:14 AM
Ooh, bold. And red. And all caps. A bid confrontational, wouldn't you say?

And you've managed to contribute nothing to the thread with this comment. By the way, it isn't bold.