How can we improve the design of animals in combat?

[Wanderer_joins]

1. Are animals useful in combat? Do you use them? If so, why?  If not, why not?

Yes. Yes, mostly in tribal runs or early game in a standard run for my base. Always as an escort for my caravans.

2. Are there annoying/weird points about animals in combat?

After a large ambush, when you've a large number of animals, you've to micro the doc to prio the worst wounds, if you rely on the AI and reform instantly most animals will bleed out to death. Regarding combat per se, i think B18 has done a lot making animals more aggressive and fleeing less to the enemy.

3. How are you using animals in combat?

Early game i train anything for cannon fodder. Mid-end game they're mostly useful to escort caravans. I use masters with personal shields to flank the raiders and overwhelm them in melee combat https://imgur.com/QsllZsy

At some point i sent juvenile boars trained for obedience in pods (20+ per pod), you don't really need release, with obedience they follow their master and attack the targets.

I've done many runs relying on animals, i've had an army of bears, boars, chickens.... but in the end the best animals are boars. They breed fast, they haul during their spare time, they fight well, they can graze, they've a small body size compared to bears (thus smaller threat in a caravan / DPS)...

If anything i'd like to have more viable options with comparable benefit/cost ratio to escort my caravans.

[zambasshik]

Right now in my 15 year colony i have 4 attack bears. The only reason i have them is because i want something to sink money into. But i do use them. My map is set up so that some sappers can mine into my mountain before im in position behind them to engage. So i use them in my halls to engage those that mine in. Amd even that they take a lot of damage. And i cant even set up shooters down the hall because of friendly fire. Im finding similar issues when they are on raids. I cant use them because my own people will hit them. So they are just glorified pack animals.

I think if they could get sheild belts it would help tremendously allowing them to close in unharmed and stay engaged my shooters fire around them as well. And some way to deal with missing body parts, once an old war animal gets too injured hes no longer combat effective and usually bonded so slaughter is a no go.

On a side note, id love to see raiders use attack animals... just my 2 cents though.

[BoogieMan]

I have trouble making much real use of non resource animals, period. Haygrass seems to grow so slow and it gets eaten so fast. Unless you're on a map with a very long growing season it seems too troublesome to me to really make use of it until the colony is well established, and at that point it's not as useful as it would have been earlier on.

I thought to use combat capable pets to guard my animal trainers as they go out in the field for when training goes awry but either they aren't close enough (even when set to follow during said activity) or if they are they don't seem to defend their master from wild animals. I'll click the release command and they don't really seem to behave differently in this situation. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it's never really worked out well.

In actual combat they don't seem to be much more than cannon fodder. They usually just get mowed down by enemies and friendly fire.

They don't seem to provide much comfort or happiness for just being around, yet their loss can be a very harsh penalty. so all in all if they don't produce a resource then they feel mostly like a resource drains without a lot of payoff.


How to make them better? Well the grass growth getting fixed should help, assuming it grows fast enough to allow longer term grazing. This isn't all specifically combat focused, but here is my feedback:

1. Reducing friendly fire would help. Or at least have people try to target the target they believe has the lowest chance of resulting in friendly fire (while still a decent chance of hitting desire target) instead of just what is closest without regard for what is in between. They also wander around too much when told to follow someone while drafted. Possibly hitting traps and getting in the way and getting shot before the enemy is close enough to be given an attack order.

2. Tweaking animal food requirements, maybe increasing haygrass growth rates or environmental tolerance? Maybe research that lets you crossbreed crops with local plants to increase yield and resilience? That'd be nifty.

3. Animal armor and shield belts/collars/harnesses etc.

4. Hunting animals. When a hunted animal goes down the hunting pet, if large enough, rushes in for the kill and carries it back. Otherwise it waits behind the hunter ready to protect them from harm.

5. Colonists can snuggle with friendly animals for warmth if needed.

6. Less of a mood hit for pet death, if they died heroically defending the colony instead of some other random pointless demise.

7. The more intelligent animals being able to be trained to go to a specific zone when the alarm is sounded would be nice. People too.

8. Not just for animals, but it would be nice to be able to set a colony alert state that prevents people from leaving safety for mundane jobs if they aren't drafted, while combining with number 7 above. Assigning posisitions of your soldiers could be better. How about Danger: go to your assigned area (for combatants) and (stay inside) for non combatants.

[FrankDrebin]

I would like more realistic effect when animal lose it's leg(s), like stop moving, just saw a deer lose 2 front legs (shot off) and it was still running until third hit shot neck off.

[giltirn]

I consider myself an experienced player (almost 300 hours), but even still I find keeping animals one of the most difficult aspects of the game. I keep a couple of boars for hauling and muffalo/alpaca for caravans, but anything more requires a huge amount of micromanagement: Unless you are playing on a map where they can graze all year, the amount of food they consume is quite terrifying. I've taken to drastically culling the population every winter otherwise my colony essentially shuts down with the demands of producing kibble to keep them fed. This means that I will never have a population large enough that I can throw a reasonable-sized group into combat.

Also controlling them in combat is very difficult. The only reliable way to get them to charge en masse (the only way enough will survive to actually engage) is to abuse animal zones, which is tedious and requires a lot of micro.

Overall I would say that we need better ways of controlling population, controlling the animals in combat, and a reduction in the food demands (i.e. buff kibble or increase haygrass growth rate), for animal combat to be anything other than an act of sheer desperation.

[YokoZar]

I train male Muffalos for release and put them on caravan duty.  Occasionally they'll help defend the colony if they're not out trading, but only in rare situations where my fixed defenses don't work such as an insect outbreak or siege before I can counter mortar.

It is not worth training my dogs for release because they're scarce - I need them to haul since they're the only ones that don't eat raw plants.  They're also much worse in combat than Muffalo.

I don't attempt to train wargs, wolves, or similar as the amount of time it takes and the odds of aggro on my handler are way too high.


I would really like some way to give trained animals nutrient paste meals.  The only thing in the way is the UI: it provides no way to operate the dispenser unless it's for self feeding.  Maybe haul trained animals could push the button for themselves the way prisoners do.

[BlueWinds]

1. Are animals useful in combat? Do you use them? If so, why?  If not, why not?

Very much so! I value my colonists immensely, and will reload if any of them die. Animals take the heat off the colonists.

But only early in the game. As colonists start getting better armor and weapons, animal's innate toughness starts mattering less, and friendly fire takes a greater toll. Also, once I've had a bear living in my colony for 6 months, it stops being cannon fodder and starts being a friend. And what sort of monster sends their friends ahead as bullet sponges?

2. Are there annoying/weird points about animals in combat?

They will. Not. Stay. In. Cover. Which means, as others have mentioned, I have to decide at the beginning of battle - leave all the animals behind at home, or mass-charge immediately when the enemy's in range. It'd be nice if they had behavior more like "hang out behind me, but swarm anyone who gets within 5 squares."

Milling out into the open in a big firefight is a death sentence.

3. How are you using animals in combat?

As said above, since they will get into the line of fire and die quickly, I release them the moment the enemy enters firing range. A charge with half a dozen big-ish animals (wolves, dogs, bears, muffalo, whatever I have handy) to accompany a fulsade of survival rifle and assault rfile fire can be a big help.

[Crow_T]

I stopped using combat animals because it seemed a good chunk of the damage they took was friendly fire. I like the idea of them but training them only to shoot them doesn't seem very productive. (this is a tough problem obviously)

[Draconicrose]

1. Animals are only useful in a melee-heavy environment or to throw as fodder to soften up enemies. Especially useful for tribals.

2. Friendly-fire and the fact that I can't direct them to attack a specific target. This should be an option on the handler. Animal handlers IRL can tell their dogs or whatever who to attack.

3. I send them out with hunter colonists for protection, and used them extensively in my tribal run, making sure to keep bonds to a minimum.

[ssauraabi]

1. Are animals useful in combat? Do you use them? If so, why?  If not, why not?

Somewhat.  I primarily use them to attempt to guard flanks, as it's easier to keep them safe that way and I can concentrate most of my firepower in one area.  I don't use them at all when it's mechanoids (chopped up too quick) and always use them against manhunters (need counter to slow down the raw numbers).

2. Are there annoying/weird points about animals in combat?

No even general "point and attack" mechanic, lack of focus/pack tactics to take down a single target, no capability to keep them out of the line of range fire once they're loose.

3. How are you using animals in combat?

Mainly when I need to slow down a lot of melee attacking enemies, though sometimes as a flanking group to a dug in enemy position if I can get there.

[JNL]

1. Are animals useful in combat? Do you use them? If so, why?  If not, why not?
Against raids I do not release them to attack.  Others have covered the pain points already, but mainly it's the friendly fire problem.  They just get massacred by your own salvos, and even if they get into attack range there's little benefit.  Basically, if you care about min/maxing your combat at all you're building some kind of killzone, and sending animals charging into your killzone basically defeats the whole point.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned wrt "combat", however, is the usage of animals as hunting companions.  If my animal tamer has enough shooting to go hunting, an animal companion is solid  for tagging along and helping out in animal revenge situations.  But this is usually a bit of a gamble once the pet learns hauling, since they might be across the map when I need them to come running.  Some kind of "follow while hunting" option might be cool there?

2. Are there annoying/weird points about animals in combat?
The classic "doh" moment is usually when drafting my tamer caused a bonded animal to run to him and, because the animal was off hauling stuff, it bee-lined into a killzone or did something else incredibly stupid.  Not sure how to fix this though, the draft behavior is sometimes useful so it's a tradeoff.

3. How are you using animals in combat?
If my tamers have to fight, I keep my tamers in the very back of the line with animals next to them.  The animals never really contribute unless shit hits the fan, at which point a few extra bodies can sometimes make the difference.  To this end, I stopped training "Release" on my animals anymore. 

Also, I second the point about managing animal feed (kibble or hay) being a bit of a micro nightmare that usually ends in starvation anyways.  Being able to predict the amount of hay I need to survive through a winter is difficult and animals really seem to run through it.

[Aaargh]

1. Are animals useful in combat? Do you use them? If so, why?  If not, why not?
2. Are there annoying/weird points about animals in combat?
3. How are you using animals in combat?

1. Yes, animals are useful at specific use-cases (see #3). Yes, I use them successfully.
At some point of the game, you have enough food, so animals are basically "free", while increasing number of colonist increases the power of raids. The same goes for caravans, as they can eat caravan's food.
Animals are also very useful for hauling, especially those things that are far away from your base.

2. The most annoying is the amount of friendly fire they take during massive combats. While for small battles, e.g. caravan engagements it is possible to manage that.
I don't find "Bonding" as a problem. You just don't take those animals to the battle and they give a passive bonus to one of your colonists.

3. I use animals in three ways:
a) Large hauling animals like Elephants are amazing in caravans engagement. You let them "tank", while do actual killing with your colonists.
b) I use wolves for hauling. As a large battle comes, I put them on a flank and let them take damage. I also use them to run down retreating enemies, to get their loot. They are reproducing very fast, so friendly-fire casualties are not a problem.
Note: I do not use kill-boxes, as I believe it is a kind of an exploit of AI system.
c) My pack of hauling wolves is amazing when defending from infestation. They "stun" skill is very useful to block insects and gives me some time to assemble colonists. Again, casualties are not a problem as I have not issues with food.

[RoboGerbil]

I use animals in a limited fashion. The vanilla creatures are mostly too costly to train for defense and hauling. So its a big one or the other kind of choice. Next is how fast they breed. Its not like i can get a group of bears in a timely fashion plus trained only to watch them all get wiped out on the first raid they see. Then im spending another 90 in game days training the next round just to repeat.

The only creature i have had modest success with is the sacred white fox mod. Only because it will survive most fights by dropping unconcious before it loses too much blood or body parts.

[SKD_Dudu]

A more complex and tactical commands system. In combat (like pawns) we should be able to determine the action/role of the animal (more specific, we should be able to give more specified commands to them).
- Follow: Simple, the animal just follow and only attacks if they have a preference or if ordened.
- Distract: In which the animal try to flank behind the enemies and serves as a distraction.
- Attack: The standard option, the animal attacks the selected pawn/animal, the higher the level, more the animal can be more precise in attacking sensitive/unprotected areas aka more severe/deadly wounds.
- Rescue: Only for powerful and specifed animals, the animal can push/haul a pawn to the nearest friendly medical bay/bed.
- Wait: This option have a 2-diferents variation, the first one he only waits, until be given a specifed command or when he have to eat, sleep etc... the second one is like a stand-by option, the animal stays on its detemined area and when a raid happens, the animal goes to help its owner.
- Protect: as the name says ... the animal stays close to its determined pawn ... until a threat gets close to a specific range, if close enough the animal attacks the enemy.

In combat, as people said, they are somewat useless in some aspects, and they are only used as meat shields, distactions or (when having a large number of them) to attack. Look at how people uses boomaloops, boars, squirels and chicks/chickens.

[Sinosauropteryx]

I used to use combat animals more often, until A18, when boomalopes started making chemfuel. Now my grazing resources are taken up by fuel production. Still, I will use muffalo as my main combat defense in early game caravans. 1 pawn + 3-5 muffalo + bulk low-value trade items like leathers = small ambushes that can usually be fended off with muffalo alone. I have no major complaints about animal combat, but sure it can be improved and most of the suggestions here are pretty good.