Denim as a Textile: The industrial answer to Cloth and Devilstrand!

[Call me Arty]

grab a white, cotton T-shirt, and try to rip it in half. Takes some effort, but not a lot. Now, take some Jeans, and do the same (at a point that's not already torn, like the knees often are). This is pretty difficult.

You're referencing real-world, modern-day, average shirts and pants here. We don't know the specifics of what Rimworlders are producing and wearing. Maybe they're all cheap, thin shirts and pants; They could equally be tougher than what's commonly available in the real world.

Furthermore, not all pants or shirts are made of the same toughness, even in the real world, where we've got mass-produced goods. You can get work shirts that are as tough as the average pair of jeans, and you can get expensive jeans as delicate as the average T-shirt. Given this amount of variation, and that the game is an abstraction from the real world, I think adding denim as a material somewhere between cotton and Devilstrand is too fine-grained for the (vanilla, un-modded) game.

"Too fine-grained" isn't exactly an issue for Rimworld. We've got three flavors of pistol based on your preference for rate of fire or damage, so why not three player-produced fabrics, based on preference of defense, insulation, and/or convenience? Otherwise, why bother with any variety? We've got four kinds of stone, which just vary in how long it takes to mine and the health of them when they're built into structures, there's a bunch of different trees, there are multiple kinds of beds and tables. Why bother?
All that variety gives the player choice. That kind of choice is what allows one colony to be a bunch of cannibalistic cyborgs in frozen caves or a bunch of animal-loving hippies in an open meadow. If people wanna be space-cowboys or country music stars, why not let them (and me) have the ability? If people choose to keep their Devilstrand fields intact, then they can, they'll just be a bit chillier when winter rolls around.

[Ser Kitteh]

so I can have some dark blues on my pawns' clothes

The game already has differently-colored cloth, though. Players can't make different colors themselves, but I suspect and hope that's an upcoming feature!  : )

Correction: it has different colored hides. There is one type of cloth and that's the white variety.

Which is why dyes should be a thing in vanilla IMO.

[sick puppy]

not sure why my tribe would research denim. by the time i can i have scavenged tons of proper armor, be it breastplates, devilstrand clothes or i guess denim clothes. every now and then i'd get good helmets and maybe even power armor.
then again tribal research is flawed by default and that's another topic

[Lemonater47]

It would have to somehow fit in between cotton, devilstrand and synthweave. Ignoring hyperweave as that is pretty much a straight upgrade of devilstrand.

[Call me Arty]

It would have to somehow fit in between cotton, devilstrand and synthweave. Ignoring hyperweave as that is pretty much a straight upgrade of devilstrand.

Assuming it was added . . .
It's not spacer tech. Tribals can still make Devilstrand. It protects less than Devilstrand. It sells for less than Devilstrand. You don't need to craft Devilstrand, it's done the moment you harvest it.

Hypothetical benefits of denim over Devilstrand? It'll keep you warmer and you'll have more of it. If anything, it's a straight upgrade to cloth, because it's more insulating and strong. Basically, every textile is an upgrade to cloth, but you're probably not getting nearly as much as any of them compared to cotton, that grows and produces like crazy.

[AileTheAlien]

Correction: it has different colored hides. There is one type of cloth and that's the white variety.

Which is why dyes should be a thing in vanilla IMO.

The base game has differently-colored cloths, but they're only sold by traders, not manufacturable by the player.

[sick puppy]

i couldnt let this idea of denim go, so imma necro, sorry not sorry

my idea was that you wouldnt implement denim as a textile because we already have so many types and because it is essentially cotton with a tiny bit of metal.
my idea was that you could make a new type of clothing called jeans. they are researchable via "complex clothing" and are made of a normal amount of cotton as for normal pants but an added piece of steel and lotsa work time. like, at least twice as much.

why add this?
- no need for another type of textile and if we're completely honest nobody wants to see pawns running around with denim cowboy hats. that's just plain ridiculous. jeans on the other hand are stylish and by far the largest amount of clothing made of denim are pants anyway, so no need to reproduce your mom's denim blouse and your dad's denim jacket and your uncle'a denim baseball cap. and as also already said, denim IS cotton. we already have it.
- jeans fit this space western style. the silly examples i made, that have been made by the fashion industry in real life mind you, do not.
- cotton is available from the get go. that's when you want to make jeans anyway.
- there is only one type of pants available - pants. eventhough there are three types of jackets and stuff, two types of undergarments and three types of hats. (not counting tribal wear)
- cotton is the worst material to make anything out of. but in real life, denim is a good ass material. why not make good pants out of your cotton? pretty sure most players use cotton for tailoring only to level up their craftsmen cheaply while making cotton dusters because they are cheap and take long to make.

the end result would be the same as with the op said, except only jeans and not all other clothes would be available. a tougher material that you can easily grow. it would also add some color to the game, otherwise only water is blue and blue carpets.

only downside i see is that denim is very anachronistic or whatever that word is called. obviously denim isnt neolithic tech in real life, but in rimworld it would be, i guess. but it wouldnt be THAT weird, since devilstrand is also neolithic and that shit is more like spacer tech.

any thoughts, comments?

***i'm sorry if some of my numbers and examples are out of date, i havent gotten fond of b18 and i still only play a17***

[Ser Kitteh]

I agree.

Denim should basically be a pair of jeans that requires maybe twice as more cotton? It should be very durable because work jeans are just that.

Because leather pants really really don't work as work pants.

While we're at it, we should also have more pants varieties. Skirts for both men and women, cargo shorts, cargo pants, etc.

[Call me Arty]

So, what are you guys trying to say?
"Denim's just reinforced cotton, so why add it? Meanwhile, we could add a brand-new kind of clothing made out of tougher cotton!" How does this fit into the game? Imagine opening the bills for the tailor bench and having your screen filled other things that specific? "Oh, yeah, your cowboy hats can only be made out of cowleather, and your boots can only be made out of snakeskin." Making jeans it's own item that can only be made with one kind of material is ridiculous.
If you guys have problem with denim, why not the textiles already in the game? Tynan's already looking at reducing the leather issue (every creature having a unique leather is a pain, especially all of their minor differences and the fact that killing ten creatures means needing ten tiles instead of one), what about the various clothes?
Cotton: A Fabric you can grow.
Devilstrand: A fabric you can, is better in nearly every way over cotton.
Synthread: You can use it in all of the same ways as cotton, except it's better.
Hyperweave: You can use it in all of the same ways as synthread, except it's better.
Where's the arguments over reducing them all to one hyperweave plant? Why not just keep banding cotton fibers together until you have hyperweave?

I still adamantly believe that denim has a place that makes it unique. If you need a reason, just read my previous posts. It takes more processing than cotton (so if you still like cotton you could still just use cotton), and it protects and sells for  less than Devilstrand (so you could just keeo using devilstrand). Otherwise, it's easy to mass-produce, is tougher than one of the weakest materials, and keeps you warm. Seems fine to me.

[sick puppy]

first of all, i dont think we need that many new pants types. no need for skirts and cargo pants because i just fail to see a niche for them. (shorts at least could give you heat resistance along with slight protection.)

about the leather issue i am all for it. the jeans thing to me is not REALLY overcomplicating things if you compare it to something like a bowler hat in comparison to a cowboy hat or colored lights to normal lights because it has a real niche in the gameplay:
- you can grow cotton quickly from the very beginning
->you can make crap quality cotton clothing with it.
(your only alternative at that level is making leather clothing which still isnt really good for much)
=> jeans would also be available very early to at least protect your legs well. it can be made from the same low quality material as normal cotton pants but with buffed stats. maybe you need a bit more cotton, way more time to make but the result would be actually useful pants until you get devilstrand, which to me still is spacer tech.

but you know what? for the sake of not having too many useless options in the game (like bowler hats, colored lights and cotton pants if we introduced jeans) you could just change the name of cotton pants and change its stats to make it fit with jeans. instead of sewing pants you get the option to just make jeans - no research needed. what do you say?

[Call me Arty]

. . . what do you say?

I think everyone's calling my idea overcomplicated, and then suggesting a more complicated solution to it.
I'm not suggesting a new sort of clothing. I am suggesting a new type of textile, which can be made into clothing. I think that removing "pants" and replacing them with "jeans" is silly too, in the same way that I'd find replacing "jackets" with "sweaters" that can only be made of wool odd too. Denim is intended to keep you warm and moderately protected, at the cost of needing to process it, rather than the ability to pick it right off the plot and turn it into a parka that same day.
"Useless options" are an essential part of a fun game, might I add. For example: Any kind of shiv is useless compared to a Plasteel Longsword, but that doesn't mean I want to see over a dozen tribals on the horizon decked-out with plasteel swords. Same reason why getting a pile of awful to normal quality weapons off of raiders makes that first superior so cherished. In addition to bringing variety (the spice of life), "useless" things like the bowler hat and colored lights can be helpful for distinguishing pawns and areas from each other. Say you modify your pawn's outfits so your planters/animal handlers have cowboy hats, your diplomats have bowlers, and your soldiers have helmets. Quick look at your colonist bar, and you know exactly who you don't want to draft to fight a centipede, or why you have so little food for the winter.

[sick puppy]

oh come on dont act dumber than you are, you made really good comments before, this is just getting silly again when you try to disprove me with everything you got all while weakening your own point

1) your solution is complicated because you want the denim making process (essentially) in rimworld. we already know what tynan's stance on complicated processes is: no thanks. he doesnt want the real life way of making beer, he doesnt want the real life way of making leather, he doesnt want the real life way of making cotton and he doesnt want the real life way of making workable wood and i could go on for a very long time. denim the way you propose it will probably not be added full stop

2) how is it any better suggesting a new type of textile instead of a new type of clothing when not even synthread and hyperweave are properly implemented into the game as a useful textile? did it ever occur to you that by reducing the number of leathers tynan wants to make the textile system simpler? your suggestion is probably too complicated in the eyes of the devs

3) i have never heard of anybody wanting to replace jackets with sweaters and i dont entirely understand what point it would serve, so i guess it really is silly. but in comparison to that my suggestion with the jeans replacing cotton pants actually has a very specific purpose in mind.

4) no. OPTIONS are an essential part of a fun game. USELESS options arent. three different types of beds? options. dozens of different kinds of weapons? options. colored lights that you have to research in a survival game? useless. learn the difference.

(sigh. dear reader. you thought it was cringy before? now comes the real deal)

5) no. shivs are weaker than longswords, not useless. shivs are buildable much sooner and dont have to be researched if i remember correctly. they are cheap and very quick to produce. they have many other slight advantages (and strong disadvantages) over longswords. they are real options.

6) yeh. nobody does. what does that have to do with anything? nobody talked about tribals with plasteel longswords. stop the strawman arguments.

7) what does quality have to do with anything.STOP THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS. you're better than this

...and that's what mods are for. vanilla rimworld doesnt consist of many useless options. it consists of real ones and it opens the doors for modders to add even more real options but also stuff like moustaches and colorful stuff.

if you dont like the idea of replacing cotton pants with jeans, just say it. dont talk around it like it's a dirty word and make yourself look bad in the process. also, repeating yourself doesnt help anybody except for those that didnt understand you. i am pretty sure that everyone understood you. you have to come up with proper arguments for your solution, against others or with a completely new point.

[Call me Arty]

if you dont like the idea of replacing cotton pants with jeans, just say it. dont talk around it like it's a dirty word and make yourself look bad in the process. also, repeating yourself doesnt help anybody except for those that didnt understand you. i am pretty sure that everyone understood you. you have to come up with proper arguments for your solution, against others or with a completely new point.

I'm not suggesting a new sort of clothing.

Welp, that sums that up pretty well. You got seven points and a pair of sunglasses from my response and didn't read the second line, y'know, with the bright red word in it.

Also, I ask that you research the things that you argue about (so that you don't "make yourself look bad in the process"). Start by reading what you're arguing against. In this case: My original post and it's resulting comments. If you had read my most recent comment thoroughly, your points 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 could have been left out. That leaves 1 and 5. If you read my original post, then you'd see that my suggestion for making denim (cotton, chemfuel, and a small amount of steel at a tailoring bench or refinery) is not only giving more use to a crafting station with very little use, but also far less complicated than the process of making beer (which you mentioned specifically as a counterargument). As for your fifth point? There's some merit. Sure, everything less than steel can be just about outclassed by your bare fists or a beer bottle, but it still requires 110 fewer materials to produce a plasteel shiv, rather than a plasteel longsword. That is, until you realize that a steel longsword outdamages it, and doesn't require the second most important material in the game, and that's just a normal quality longsword. At that point, when you're choosing between a decent weapon made from an abundant resource and a mediocre weapon made out of a rare resource, one is essentially useless.
Oh, and if you did your research, you'd know what a "strawman" is. A strawman, for example, would call a shiv useless, rather than useless in comparison to a steel longsword (which it is). Another example of a strawman would be calling the bowler hat useless just because there's already a hat very similiar to it in the g- hey wait a second!



So, anything else regarding my idea for denim that isn't a personal attack on my reply for the purpose of gaining internet points on a small forum, or can we just go back to what we were doing before, and check-out more wishful thinking for a really cool game?

[sick puppy]

wow, that's a pretty dank answer, man, want a cookie and an honorary blunt to blaze?

you are not suggesting a new pair of pants. i am. pretty hard to understand. i know. i came up with an idea of my own. thanks for recognizing it.

i did read your comment, but if you dont point out what your issue is about mine, we cant have a constructive thread here so please go ahead and do so. stop pms-ing for christ's sake

what does that have to do with anything. i have never heard anybody complain that you cant do enough things at the tailoring bench or refinery. besides, tailoring benches can literally do dozens of things, if you dont use it, then that's your way of playing. i like to make my own clothes so that my pawns dont have dead man's apparel and i dont have to buy them overpriced from traders either. the other thing, refineries, sure enough, not exactly the most useful building, but making denim at a refinery? i dont think that's where they are made in rl either. making jeans at a tailoring bench makes WAY more sense than that. nobody would bat an eye if beer was actually useful in the game (which it isnt). the problem of beer is a different one. but there is a seperate thread for that which granitecosmos started if i am not mistaken. and if you are too lazy to read that thread, here is the important part for our case: beer in rimworld is less useful than in real life because its original purpose was conserving food, which it cant do very efficiently in rimworld. the beer making process in real life is very complicated. the rimworld version is already simplified and tynan doesnt want to make it more complicated. yet, beer is useless in comparison to something like pekoe.

the fighting system being broken as of b18 is no news. it will be fixed for 1.0, according to tynan. dont talk beside the point. if you are attempting to troll me, you are doing a very bad job.

ironic how you had to look up what a strawman argument is, read its definition and still cant discern between one and an actual argument. try again.

shivs arent useless. the way you put it now is like saying cloth tribalwears are useless in comparison to power armor, which it is, but it doesnt help anybody in this thread.
to repeat: cloth tribalwear can be made with cloth, at a crafting spot without any research and it takes very little time to do it. it doesnt have any armor to show for it though. power armor is the complete opposite of this. you dont have to tell me i am right about power armor and cloth tribalwear, i know i am. you only have to tell me what purpose this point serves, because i see none. nobody is talking about this. it is a strawman argum...oh goddamn it i helped you with your homework. ok, you have to make one less example of what strawman arguments are to make it believable that you actually do know the difference. that leaves you with one more example. but if you dont feel like it because your main teacher gave you too much home work already for today, you can also just skip it this time and instead just not make any strawman arguments yourself.

_{BE CONSTRUCTIVE IN YOUR COMMENTS FFS AS I AM THE ONLY MEMBER OF THIS FORUM AS OF NOW THAT DOESNT IGNORE YOU COMPLETELY}

[Ramsis]

Oh for the love of... children enough, please. This slap fight is nothing shy of annoying over the smallest of things. Pup this is going to be your second strike as far as I'm concerned because of your buggery attitude, keep it up and I'm invoking a multi-week ban for inciting and harassment.

Seriously, just walk away and stop pestering the thread... or else. <3