Rethinking armour.

[Klomster]

Greetings fellow denizens of the rim.
I'm Klomster, you might have seen me in-game

Anyway, to the point.
I think armour in general in the game is REALLY shitty, like dang.
Sure i know it's not the numbers, but getting on power armour feels more like getting a buff of 2% than putting on impressive high tech power armour.

"There's a mod for that, don't make suggestions since modding solves everything."
I don't want a mod, as soon there is an update, most of the mods die and cannot be used anymore so there is no way to depend on them apart from having a function added to the main game.

I set up a scenario, where i wanted to play as a group of glitterworld marines who are here to "prepare" this rimworld for possible colonizing. Ie kill all the unwanteds.
So yeah, i get people with amazing combat stats, start off with everyone in power armour, the sergeant gets a devilstrand tuque because space opera. (Would have gotten a cigar if i could.)

And start off, i fight enemies, build a colony, i fight some more...
Soon i realize that my badass glitterworld marines are getting their ass handed to them by losers with shivs.
Someone downs a power armoured guy with a shoddy bow.
The limit was when my doctor was mucking about, WHAM, a cobra bites off his leg.
THE ENTIRE LEG? In power armour?

What is this stuff made from? papier maché?

So my point is, all the armour in game feels really useless. The only thing that matters is to have good positions, never be surrounded and preferably not fight at all. The combat skills are not nearly as important as ganking enemies and putting up turrets.
I mean sure, if a dude gets surrounded, he's gonna go down, sure.
But a system wide master melee fighter should be able to take down 2 enemies in close combat without getting his arm chopped off with a marble club.
Especially if said person is wearing power armour.

The sad truth is that when i play the game, i never craft any armour. And this hurts my soul a little since i love armour.
It's one of my favorite things to nerd about, the curves, the articulation, all that good stuff!
But in the game, sure, if an enemy drops some i'll use it.
I won't craft it, total waste of resources.
Either i can build a MASSIVE bunker with the steel for a single armour vest, or i can make like several auto-turrets which are a way better investment (unintended pun) than armour.

The armour vest is basically pointless, the power armour helps a little, but it's not what i'd call power armour to begin with.
It's more like a massively thick fur coat with air conditioning, seeing it's better at heat regulation than being armour.
It's certainly not worth the cost and resources it takes to get it.

When i think power armour, i think something impressive, sleek articulated plate armour with in-built strength enhancers and piston arrangements which hinders the wearer in no way, while fending off small arms fire like it was nothing.
That's not what it is in rimworld.

My suggestion, is to improve the soak of all armour, and/or make it cheaper.
The fact i can make 3 bedrooms with the amount of metal i need for an armour is ludicrous. Rename the current power armour "advanced armour" or something, it's a cooler armour with better protection than armour vest.
And add a power armour, non-craftable. It should add hit points to the locations it covers, improve strength, vision and perhaps even speed. Loads of soak, loads of item hit points as well with the ability to repair it. (Of course costing plasteel and/or lots of steel and components.)
Make them exceedingly rare and expensive, the kind of price that makes you reel back a bit.

If a space pirate comes drop podding down in one of these, you should feel "OH SHIT!" not like it is now, a measly "Oh, power armour enemy, i'll send in my shiv dude... staeb... done."
It should also cost a lot of raid points, so the raids gets smaller if just a single one of these pop in.
And if you have one, the raiders will want them. So a high wealth is natural for them.

For as it is now, i never bother with crafting any armour.
It's far to expensive, and the payout could as well be nil as far as i see.

The armour vest should give good protection, but break really fast.
The advanced armour should be slightly better, with the main feature being item hit points.
While the power armour should make the colonist into a frikkin juggernaut.

"But it's not balanced."
Rimworld is not balanced, it's for making stories.
And if i want to play the story of glitterworld space marines out to purge a planet for future colonization, i don't expect the story of how the space marines get stabbed to death with sharp sticks and getting their legs torn off by odd snakes.

As it is now power armour is not special, it's the only armour worth bothering with and barely even that.

[Boston]

If you read into the fiction of fantasy containing power armor (so, Fallout and WH40k, mainly), you will see that power armor, while strong, is not invulnerable.

In Fallout, Brotherhood of Steel members get killed all the time in power armor. One of their leaders was killed by taking an arrow through the eyeslit of his helmet.

Same thing in WH40k. In that universe, power armor is better, but in one story, a Space Marine gets killed by someone jamming a knife between the plates of their Power Armor into one of his hearts and two of his lungs  In another, a Marine gets killed by Guardsmen targeting the joints of his Power Armor with lasguns.

So.... Should Power Armor be strong? of course. Should it be invulnerable? No.

IMO, power armor should

1) be strong, but not invulnerable. The joints should be the weak spots.

2) support its own weight, plus then weight of any weapons eauipped, allowing the user to move faster.

3) offer bonuses in combat when wearing the helmet, due to autotargeting sensors and recoil stabilizers and the like

Protect from flames, smoke, poisonous gas and the like.

[Klomster]

Fallout 4 is a rather reasonable comparrison.

Sure, you can die when wearing it.
But it's gonna take some doing. Since in fallout the power armour is similar to a vehicle. At least in 4, earlier games were a bit different.

I'm also not saying you should be invulnerable,how fun is that. But getting your arm ripped off by an angry monkey is not what i call reasonable.

The 40k power armour is very strong, it being worn by a completely reasonable (cough) space marine also makes it even more crazy.
I don't know all the hit locations in rimworld, but i know there are a lot of them so it could cover a whole lot of them. But leaving a few rather open.

But i agree with your statement Boston.
Power armour should be all that.

[Perq]

So, you essentially want to make the game easier/boring?
I wonder - what can go wrong?
Seriously. If you think that armor is useless, trying walking around without any armor. Sure, there are accidents that may look silly (aka limbs flying off), but I'd say otherwise game would be simply boring.
What is fun in mowing down helpless hordes of weaklings when you're 100% sure nothing happen to you? If this is your idea of fun, you may as well get mods on. The general consensus is that overcoming difficulties (this includes random accidents) is fun.

The only problem I have with armor is the inability to maintain it. It getting destroyed over time/with hits is fine (because it requires resource management and so on), being unable to repair existing ones (instead of building new ones) is kinda dumb.

[cultist]

"There's a mod for that, don't make suggestions since modding solves everything."
I don't want a mod, as soon there is an update, most of the mods die and cannot be used anymore so there is no way to depend on them apart from having a function added to the main game.

I think it's a strange time to to make this argument, as we're approaching 1.0 - I suspect a few minor updates after that and then a stable version, so modders can really get to work without worrying about backwards compatibility.
Modding so far has been a "beta" effort as well - once we get a few monts into the stable version, I think we're going to see a whole new level of mods, and I'm super excited for it.

And while it's true that many mods die with new updates, dedicated modders who've spent months on their work tend to update their files so people can keep enjoying their work.

[Call me Arty]

 I agree, there needs to be a helluva lot more smoking. The comparison of power armor to a vehicle is pretty sound. If I get into a fender bender, I might get whiplash, which is pretty understandable. A pile-up? Alright, probably some bruises, but I'm mostly protected in the car. Same with power armor. I take a shotgun blast to the helmet, I'm probably getting a headache. I take a real hard hit to the side of the armor's torso that's enough to dent it, I'll expect a dent. I'm calling BS on a knife or bow getting through it though.

Low enough damage should just be outright nullified or greatly reduced. Bows or fists, for example, shouldn't do jack. Pistols? Paint chippers. A plasteel mace isn't going to much, but it's certaintly going to send some concussive force in there, probably enough for a bruise, same deal with a shotgun. Once you get to sniper, charge rifle, and rocket territory, though, that's when you get the can openers. I'm not sure if we have it already (because why the hell would I use power armor? Same boat as OP) but EMPs would also be an interesting choice, and give them some use after the occasional mechanoid.

[Call me Arty]

If you read into the fiction of fantasy containing power armor (so, Fallout and WH40k, mainly), you will see that power armor, while strong, is not invulnerable.

In Fallout, Brotherhood of Steel members get killed all the time in power armor. One of their leaders was killed by taking an arrow through the eyeslit of his helmet.

Same thing in WH40k. In that universe, power armor is better, but in one story, a Space Marine gets killed by someone jamming a knife between the plates of their Power Armor into one of his hearts and two of his lungs  In another, a Marine gets killed by Guardsmen targeting the joints of his Power Armor with lasguns.

Careful with your examples there, buddy. For one, both are so obscure and exceptional, I couldn't even find them after some googling, so the Warhammer examples must be deep in a book somewhere. The BOS example, however, is taken from perhaps the most disliked and least canon game in the entire franchise, a franchise which recently included a person wearing said armor tanking a rocket's entire fuel supply from about 30 feet from it's engines, and ended-up only being a bit warm by the end of it. Additionally, those space marines not only have insane armor (which don't have these plates you mention: it's closed armor. It can survive space, there must have been a rupture. From looking at any picture of them, there's no way you could stab three organs in one thrust unless your knife curved inwards after stabbing it through), but insane armor designed to go toe-to-toe with robotic death mummies, greenskins who are as tall as them when they're not wearing armor, and biomass-accumulating parasites that would scare The Flood. It's understandable to assume that every once in a while, there's a fluke. Thankfully, we have none of that to deal with in Rimworld.

[Klomster]

To defend the 40k power armour have weak points argument (since i try to view both ends of an argument... i try) the 40k marine power armour is fully space sealed, yes.
But in the back of the knees, elbows, armpits, neck.
There is soft armour. Clearly visible in this image.
https://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2013/11/21/558689_md-Blue%2C%20Bolter%2C%20Glaze%2C%20Space%2C%20Space%20Marines%2C%20Ultramarines.JPG

Those parts would have the same protection as cloth has.

As for the "There is no fun in mowing down helpless enemies." argument. Yes there is.
There is also fun in painstakingly managing your tribal society, trying to scrounge up food for the coming winter.
I have played both and enjoyed both. But the marine one was kinda off for me since i expected tougher marines.
(Also, FOI, i might be wrong but there was roughly an equal amount of lost limbs and violence related deaths in both of those games for me.)

And yes, of course power armour helps, if i see an armour vest lying about i have my most important colonist/battler wear it in the hopes it will save his/her life. Any armour is better than no armour. Damned be the "a corpse wore this" penalty, i want this one alive.
It's just that i wish the bonus was more noticeable.
And the power armour doesn't feel like power armour.

It feels like a, well, advanced combat armour. It is very high tech, but not impenetrable.
Also, not being able to repair weapons and armour is silly. This should be added.
If i can produce charge rifles, i should be able to repair a pistol or some armour.
Totally agree on that point.

The idea with emp working against power armour is great, that makes emp more useful.
It could lock down the armour, making the wearer unable to move for a while.

As for me thinking the game should be easy.
As i see it, the difficulty and cost of getting the power armours i am thinking about, with the enemy space pirates able to spawn in them. Would make the game HARDER.
Since it's very hard for me to obtain them, seeing they are very expensive for me to get, so i won't be able to afford them early on. Later the enemy will be spawning in them.
Making defending a base much more intense.
And hopefully, the armour will be of good quality, and i have enough resources to repair it that i can use it in the future.
When my new power armour adds to the wealth of my colony, adding to the next raids point limit.

Sure, if i get hold of a few suits, i will have a very strong defence.
But of course emp should be their weakness. Exotic melee weapons like scyther blades, power claws and thrumbo horns should be strong against them (having an armour divisor or something, i dunno) and i never claimed they should be invincible.
Just hella strong.
Balance is of course difficult here and i have no concrete number suggestions.

Also with the cost of the armour, one might even feel it's more worth selling it off, to get that megascreen television, or that material needed for that project.
Or just food.
Since it would cost to repair it, some colonies won't be able to manage that. With other problems like blight and mad cow disease.
Sure you can tank sniper rifle bullets to the head, but you're still starving and there are A LOT of manhunting muffalos out there...

I think one of my pet peeves with this is that very few know that historically, how insanely strong plate armour was. As a comparrison.
Normal swords and bows could not penetrate them, the guys wearing them were also the best fighters the society had to offer and as such they were hella strong.
That's why specialist weapons, like pollaxes and extra beefed up warbows with steel-tipped arrows were created to counter them.
The same way i think power claws, emp and rocket launchers should be the counter to power armour.
An armour piercing value could also be interesting for weapons in general.

Since yeah, my sword here is made from monomolecular diamond and has a power field, so it cuts through armour like butter.
It won't do much difference if the guy coming at me has cloth tribalwear, i'm gonna do roughly the same damage to him.
This could give some weapons an edge in certain fields, without simply raising their damage.
Making some weapons more useful in certain fields.
An smg will do shit against armour, but works excellent against many unarmoured foes.
This high damage AP sword works swell against power armour. But it doesn't have that high of an attack speed, also the high damage isn't really enough when surrounded. When you want high attack speed.

It would also be cool to be able to mod some melee weapons, for example making that sick vibro sword, which makes it armour piercing in exchange for lower attack speed. Or a mechanical arm brace, which improves swing speed but makes weaker attacks and/or is tiring.

I'm rambling.
Point is i want badass power armour.
And there's nothing wrong with having one scenario where you are completely badass and just slaughter all the fools. It's fun for variation.

[Call me Arty]

I'm rambling.
Point is i want badass power armour.
And there's nothing wrong with having one scenario where you are completely badass and just slaughter all the fools. It's fun for variation.

Nah, you got your points across. I know you're not rambling because I could tell you had points.
I like to earn my slaughter. Same reason why taking down raiders with a sniper rifle feels so satisfying after dealing with the survival rifle and pistols for so long. I'd have no problem with being a man-tank if was one of those major stepping stones that can completely alter your colony. They're not all equal, but things like the first cooler than can freeze food so you don't have to worry about losing food the day after you make it, the assault rifle that finally balances power and fire rate, and power armor, that changes the game when your soldiers are so frequently outnumbered. Besides, a prohibitive cost would probably limit you severely in your fool-slaughtering.

[Tynan]

We actually totally redesigned how armor works for 1.0, so I hope you'll like the next version more.

It did indeed have issues previously.

[Call me Arty]

We actually totally redesigned how armor works for 1.0, so I hope you'll like the next version more.

It did indeed have issues previously.

PRAISE BE!

[Klomster]

We actually totally redesigned how armor works for 1.0, so I hope you'll like the next version more.

It did indeed have issues previously.

Really?
I will look into this with much interest.

And Arty, glad we can see each others points

[Ser Kitteh]

Redesigned armor is good. Make Power Armor Great For Once.

Another issue I think is the lack of cheaper versions of armor. Having something as basic as gambessons at the tailoring bench or chainmail at the smithy would do well for early game and tribal playthroughs.

[Klomster]

Or some sort of wooden armour.

It protects ok.... but has BAAAAAAAAD durability.
Like only a few strikes, like 2.

Would be a fun armour.

Cloth armour is also an interesting idea.
Megatherium wool gambeson, i'd like that.

[Kirby23590]

We actually totally redesigned how armor works for 1.0

Interesting. I hope that armor might be really different and i don't know how it will function though.

AND HE HAS SPOKEN!

Or some sort of wooden armour.

It protects ok.... but has BAAAAAAAAD durability.

Cloth armour is also an interesting idea.

Don't forget that leather armor exists too!

might be better than cloth or wood but is more expensive to craft and make though.