Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

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rdshen

#3495
Quote from: Tynan on July 22, 2018, 08:43:54 AM
I'm interested in how turrets are these days, in terms of effectiveness, accessibility, usefulness, cost/benefit. Note they were made cheaper not long ago. I haven't seen much mass turret use and I'd have expected to see more.

In my experience turrets aren't very workable anymore. With the changes to killboxes generally a more open/dynamic defense set-up is superior, which leaves turrets too spread/exposed/in demand. If I've got four entrances to my base at a time when I get 15-20 raiders, we're talking 2-3k steel just to create a worthwhile set of turrets that won't be useless 3/4 of the time. I could throw 400-800 steel out to get 2 per entrance, but then we have only two turrets that die very rapidly, take a lot of attention, need to be in front of colonists (friendly fire), and are unable to deliver enough damage to protect themselves.
Then the upkeep, while good in principle, makes them even less feasible. First, there is no scaling cost to reload. (as far as I know) So colonists don't reload unless they're close to out, and if you micromanage it it's still a waste of resources. Second, because they aren't reloaded at xx% durability, they run out of shots in fights more often than the raw # of shots statistic would imply.

So they aren't very reliable, they don't do stellar damage, they are prone to friendly fire which creates sub-optimal demands on positioning, they die quickly, they are very costly, and their being stationary has been made much more impactful with recent changes.

Sniper turret in my experience is very good and worthwhile. Much more care needs to be taken because you can't really have the sniper turret in front of colonists, and it one shots friendlies through shield belts. However it does very good work and uranium once you get deep drilling isn't a problem. The range also protects it and increases ROI.

Autocannons in my experience seem to be stuck inbetween sniper and mini in a way that makes them hard to use. If you need up close fighting, or to protect a sniper turret, a couple mini-turrets are probably best. If you need fighting outside of the minimum range, sniper turrets seem to be far more effective. If you're looking at long term returns, steel upkeep is worse and more meaningful than uranium. Autocannons are awful for friendly fire, but the minimum range prohibits putting it in front, and the lower maximum range reduces the number of viable positions compared against the sniper turret.

Most of this from my ship launch run. Wasn't permadeath.
Most recent permadeath run I haven't even built a turret yet, way too much demand for steel on other things and way too many entry points into my base. I might build a sniper turret, but will probably never build minis except to protect it.

Syrchalis

#3496
TL;DR: Turrets use way too much energy. Switches don't help if you don't use a kill box and have your turrets close together. Additional upkeep is another disincentive. One, two, three turrets don't have much impact on a fight. The explosion is a huge hazard.

To add to this, the cost is just way too high to use turrets outside of kill box or let's say "choke point" scenarios.

First there is the building cost. That isn't too bad, given that they might save your colony and you can't really invest much more into defense, aside from traps which require planning and are even better in choke points.

The new barrel change upkeep - also not too bad in and off itself. It's not that much. However it adds running costs to something that you built and was "just there" so it definitely is a disincentive compared to before. Though, this upkeep only happens if they actually do something, which I find fair.

What kills turrets completely for me, and always has been, the energy requirement. It indirectly adds another layer of costs. The energy drain is constant, so even if they aren't used they require it. If you are running many batteries a switch will do, though it requires a colonist to flick it when an attack comes.

And here the problem starts - if you don't have a choke point or kill box, then your turrets are spread out so you have to flick a lot of switches or build a complicated network of power lines.

Really what I think is needed is turrets to be stronger in general, but weaker if used in high concentration. Basically like the watermill turbulence - it would mean there can only be this many turrets in an area, kill box or not, and then they could be stronger without being too good in choke points.

Also maybe make them require no or very little energy when not in use, without the need for switches.
For mod support visit the steam pages of my mods, Github or if necessary, write me a PM on Discord. Usually you will find the best help in #troubleshooting in the RimWorld discord.

lauri7x3

is this a bug?
an emu has 100% aggressive but a cougar only 10% ?

Syrchalis

Quote from: lauri7x3 on July 22, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
is this a bug?
an emu has 100% aggressive but a cougar only 10% ?
No, Emu's are aggressive son's of b****es.
For mod support visit the steam pages of my mods, Github or if necessary, write me a PM on Discord. Usually you will find the best help in #troubleshooting in the RimWorld discord.

spaceage

I agree with everything you said, @rdshen. I looked at the XML and the turrets will be auto-reloaded at a different percentage for each type, but having that user-settable would be more ideal.

DariusWolfe

Quote from: Syrchalis on July 22, 2018, 02:29:34 PM
Quote from: lauri7x3 on July 22, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
is this a bug?
an emu has 100% aggressive but a cougar only 10% ?
No, Emu's are aggressive son's of b****es.

And apparently it's possible for an unarmed human to intimidate a wild cougar into backing down. I mean, I wouldn't want to try it, but there are videos of people doing it.

spaceage

#3501
Quote from: Syrchalis on July 22, 2018, 02:29:34 PM
Quote from: lauri7x3 on July 22, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
is this a bug?
an emu has 100% aggressive but a cougar only 10% ?
No, Emu's are aggressive son's of b****es.

Hunting seems too perilous now; especially since the colonists don't flee to the direction of help (base, other colonists). Whenever I have hunting set, I will always have to stop everything to go manage a pawn's escape route, and even then they'll usually end up unconscious because they take their sweet time transitioning from shooting to running.

Also clicking the checkboxes for hunting animals will become temporarily impossible as the warnings about possible revenge cover the checkboxes at the top of the list.

spaceage

DAE get annoyed that when colonists come back from caravans, their bedding assignments are gone? Also for later in the game, it would be convenient to be able to fulfill trade agreements with transport pods.

XeoNovaDan

Considering the movement speed buffs of most animals now, I think that a re-evaluation of animal combat power ratings is definitely due. For instance, a megasloth now has all-round superior combat stats to a bear (higher health, higher DPS, same 200% ranged accuracy modifier, 4.8 c/s vs bear's 4.6 c/s), yet has a lower combat power rating of 150 vs a bear's 200.

Kalre

Yeah Megasloths are human butchers now, 2 hits generally end up in one or two limbs off hehe.

Crow_T

I thought we can do this now (this is a very long thread), but if we can't being able to flick switches while drafted would be amazing for turret usage.

Wood should rot when outdoors and uncovered, else not. This was fine as is from previous versions.

(regarding dead man's apparel)
"I think, at the very least, the buff should go away for jackets so long as you're wearing the former owner's skin as a shirt."
-Condaddy20

Snafu_RW

Quote from: Crow_T on July 22, 2018, 03:14:21 PM

Wood should rot when outdoors and uncovered, else not. This was fine as is from previous versions.
Hmm.. wood should still rot (albeit more slowly) if left outside on covered bare ground due to absorbing moisture from that surface; however shelves are too small to realistically hold a decent woodpile. Perhaps some sort of larger covered shelf-like structure could be considered for basic perishable resources?
Dom 8-)

Koek

Quote from: lauri7x3 on July 22, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
is this a bug?
an emu has 100% aggressive but a cougar only 10% ?
No, emus are the biggest assholes in the universe

Underscore

#3508
I started up my ship's reactor expecting fifteen days of absolute hell.

I have 5.6 days remaining and I have not gotten a single raid.

EDIT: I had a little more time before work and I fast forwarded through the last 6 days. Reactor is ready, not a single raid or incident.

KalkiKrosah

Hello Tynan,
Is there any possibility that more Tribal background stories will be created for version 1.0? I play tribal colonies a whole lot and I'd really like to see a non-unique Tribal backstory or three that gives a bonus to animals.