Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

IndustryStandard

By any chance can we fix the bug/feature,

If you build anything, before it's actually made and it's all highlighted, and you put another object on it, for example, you lay out the walls of your next base, and put the conduits in the walls and such.

The colonists will only build the walls, and the conduits get cancelled. This applies to anything that seems to overlap when building. I definitely remember this not always being a thing.

DariusWolfe

Quote from: Teleblaster18 on June 22, 2018, 01:52:35 AM
Again - if this is my own ignorance of how to move prisoners, please disregard (and I'd love it if someone could tell me how to do it properly);  however, this might be of interest to the Devs if it is an unintended consequence with no work-around while 1.0 is still being examined closely.

I believe if you just leave them, your warden will move them to the newly zoned prison area. Unsure, but I think I recall this happening in the past.

Quote from: Ardshael on June 22, 2018, 02:07:39 AMIf there was a setting to restrict all colonists from eating certain food types, that would be very helpful.

I usually just forbid anything I don't want colonists to touch, like drugs and long-term foods. If selected for a caravan, they will still load up the forbidden items.

Tynan

New build going up. Lots more tasks over here to do, thanks for the ongoing feedback everyone!

Raw change log below.

------

Caravan BaseJoyGainPerHour 0.31 -> 0.35
Fix: Smoothed stone floors have no market value.
Condensed all the dependent RoomStats into a single worker class driven by a SimpleCurve in the def instead of using complex case-specific math. Adjusted a few numbers. Renamed defaultScore -> roomlessScore to be clearer.
Refactor cleanliness calculations into a SimpleCurve.
Reviewed heat generation from buildings game-wide. Made a new debug output to help analyze it. Some buildings produce heat that didn't before (stoves, etc).
Multi-analyzer advanced component cost 2->1.
Fix: Various recipes have no work speed stat, and so work speed is unaffected by injury or traits. -Make chemfuel at organic bench. -Make stone blocks. -Burn drugs/apparel, cremate corpse. To fix, added a UnskilledProductionSpeed stat that is affected by health conditions only.
Reworked brewing speed into drug cooking speed, applied it to brewing, pekoe and smokeleaf. Smokeleaf making is no longer weirdly divorced from all health conditions. Renamed drug production speed to drug synthesis speed to distinguish it better from drug cooking. Reworked recipe skill debug output into a table.
Incendiary launcher can now target locations. Minigun can no longer target locations.
Reduced various infection chances (around 25%).
Watermill cost 340/20/1 -> 280 wood, 80 steel, 3 components.
Increase animal gestation times roughly 20% game-wide.
Adjusted some constructionSkillPrerequisites and UI icon draw sizes. Campfire no longer has a construction skill requirement. Short bow crafting skill requirement 3->2.
Saguaro cactus wood yield 10 -> 20.
Minor text fixes.
Added TranslationHandle attributes where appropriate. Translation handles are now sanitized properly.
Added translation report syntax suggestion for helpTexts.0. Moved some code from Pawn_RotationTracker to FaceTarget() so it can be reused by e.g. JobDriver_SitFacingBuilding which fixes some rotation issues.
Finished working on translation handles. Moved translation handles code to a separate file. Fixed some issues. Translation report now suggests using translation handles instead of raw indexes.
Fix 3451: Faction Kinship of Abetra of def TribeRough has no usable PawnGroupMakers
Added a sound that plays when the build script is finished.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

Elendil

#288
I played several games so far, I'd say 25+ hours. I played only river maps.

WATER:

New water mechanics are really fun. But I would like there to be a visual feedback when somebody is wet. Possibly make their lower half darker, or make them drip water.

Something that seemed a little odd was that a river affected me the same in boreal forest when it was -17°C as in arid shrubland when it was 34°C. What I think would be really interesting and made the gameplay more engaging would be if the soaking wet debuff gave a debuff to cold resistance (perhaps even negate cold resistance of clothes).

To balance this, shallow water could inflict only "wet" debuff, that would be only half as wet, while deep water would inflict "soaking wet".

I think that this would make rivers even more interesting gameplay element in cold biomes.

Watermill generator seemed balanced cost-wise (340 wood at the time, catus 10 wood at the time) on arid shrublands map. A way to balance it better on maps with lot's of wood could possibly be making it a little bit bigger/harder to place.

ANIMALS:

I like the training changes, and that animals can have diseases. Makes them more precious. I managed to tame some herbivores, but had my skilled tamer mauled by bears several times (8% chance). I didn't even try to tame a warg 50% attack chance. I'm not sure if animal attack chance is affected by animal handling skill, but I guess I would like it to be. It would make it more rewarding having a high skilled animal tamer and more dangerous taming predators with less skilled pawns.

RAIDS/COMBAT:

(Cassandra extreme, no killboxes)
I had a lot of fun with the new event where raiders attack from different sides. Those battles felt like they rewarded me for strategy and tactics. Some of the most fun I had with combat.

I also like the split of scythers to lancers/scythers - makes for a more tactical combat, where melee is perfectly viable. Poison ship radius is a great change too.

A combat event that didn't feel that great - sieges. Seemed the only viable strategy is to attack them straight up? A had a weak colony, that wouldn't do very well in a straight up combat. Siege came and the text read 'or you can't try to wait them out'. I never tried that (716 hours of Rimworld says Steam), but they kept getting drop pods with more and more shells. Was this because it was extreme difficulty? If so, very well, all is good and ignore this point. If not - new players might feel betrayed on easier difficulties. I get that sieges are supposed to draw you out, but there should be an alternative - surviving the shelling (which is quite fun actually, so it would be a shame if the game forced you to 'go get them'). I realise that this isn't really a 1.0 feedback, but since the game is getting a official release...

I actually really like the new 'shot deflected' mechanics. But it doesn't feel great when bolt action rifle/greatbow/sniper rifle shots are deflected by regular clothes. Those major high impact shots not connecting in this way feels a little bit cheap.

Flak vest/Flak pants costing cloth can be a problem on some maps like boreal or tundra. I dont think it let me use leather. That can be frustrating especially when I was unlucky with traders.

OTHER:

I like the new skill level requirements, as well as slowdown of growing. Research feels better.

UI - in the assign tab, there are drop down menus for type of medical care a pawn is supposed to recieve and and type of response when attacked. I would personally prefer, if instead of a dropdown menu, there was a menu similar to the 'health tab' of a pawn (where you click either glitterworld med/normal med/herbal med/no med/no care). As I use the 'assign' tab to assign medicine, this would be less clicks. The downside is, that it would be less readable at a glance. But on the other hand, that could be compensated by making the currently selected option in a nice visible white box and the not selected choices greyed out.

......

Anyway, having a lot of fun with this 1.0. If I didn't mention something, it means I can't think of a way to improve it :).

Jibbles

Quote from: Elendil on June 22, 2018, 07:21:08 AM
New water mechanics are really fun. But I would like there to be a visual feedback when somebody is wet. Possibly make their lower half darker, or make them drip water.

I prefer soaking wet debuff be removed.   I expected for it to have some kind of benefits such as cool down pawns during heat wave if it's going to mess with moods. Also expected my pawns to get the same debuff in rain but that doesn't seem to happen.  Really have to create restricted areas against rivers  if it's something you don't want to deal with (I rather not) since a pawn isn't always going to choose a bridge, nor should they have to.

Elendil

#290
Quote from: Elendil on June 22, 2018, 08:48:39 AMI prefer soaking wet debuff be removed.   I expected for it to have some kind of benefits such as cool down pawns during heat wave if it's going to mess with moods.

I have to say that I like it - it makes rivers more meaningful. It makes bridges meaningful. But it's really strange and counterintuitive that 'soaking wet' affects the player exactly the same way in freezing temperatures as well as scorching hot climates. If water actually cooled down pawns - which could be a benefit or a detriment, it would make rivers an actual part of the gameplay, not just a 'you can't build here and you shouldn't walk here' area.

Also I would love to see traits tied to water - aquaphile (+mood in water) and aquaphobe (straight up refuses to enter water, except when on fire), fast swimmer (+speed in water), hardy (doesn't mind being wet, being cold/being hot affects them less).

The thing is, I found out that now that rivers aren't just nuisance, I really like playing with them. The game mechanics of hot/cold are already part of the game, it would be a missed opportunity not to tie them to water too. Also If I was a new player, I would be scratching my head why crossing a creek in an arid shrubland is about as problematic as crossing a huge river in a tundra.

Even better - rivers already generate with shallow water fords (even the huge ones). At least all of the ones I had on my maps did. If it was less detrimental to cross through shallows than through deep water, it would add another layer of gameplay. Do I REALLY need the berries on the other side of the river? Can I afford to swim there in this temperature? Should I invest in researching bridges?

On two maps I had huge rivers with an ancient asphalt road. This now generates a bridge over the water (extremely cool feature btw) and I noticed that the pawn's AI prioritize the bridge, even when the angle of the bridge meant that they had to take a pretty considerable detour. So I'd say the pathfinding is pretty much up to the task of having rivers be more "interesting". Overall I was quite pleasantly surprised with how little my pawns entered water.

I guess I really fail to see the downside to this, as player can always choose to play on a map without a river.

medzernik

Quote from: Jibbles on June 22, 2018, 07:51:45 AM
Quote from: Elendil on June 22, 2018, 07:21:08 AM
New water mechanics are really fun. But I would like there to be a visual feedback when somebody is wet. Possibly make their lower half darker, or make them drip water.

I prefer soaking wet debuff be removed.   I expected for it to have some kind of benefits such as cool down pawns during heat wave if it's going to mess with moods. Also expected my pawns to get the same debuff in rain but that doesn't seem to happen.  Really have to create restricted areas against rivers  if it's something you don't want to deal with (I rather not) since a pawn isn't always going to choose a bridge, nor should they have to.

I second that idea of being cooled down in hot biomes and chilled in snow biomes

Mihsan

I just got a sappers raid and it was... frustrating.

First of all direct power of that raid was much higher than my colony could beat in fair fight. I have 11 tribal fighters with rifles (3 more brawlers are off the map with caravan), 4 trained dogs and 3 stolen mortars; enemy have 26 people with doomsday and rocket launchers, power armors, shielded brawlers and better weapons in general. I had like 30 savescum attempts and 95% of them ended with my total loss. One time I won just because raiders nuked themselves with doomsday launcher and it was easy to beat them after that with minimal loses (only like 80% of my people downed, 1 dead and 30% of base destroyed); another "win" was with also some extreme luck, but most of my base burned and most people died. I understand that Randy Intense should provide such experience, but it feels too much even for him. I even suspect that something is off with how game sees my success in this game because after that raid I got 21 manhunting megaslots (when all of my base is "outdoors" w/o walls and my people still healing in beds) and also that sapper raid was not just "randomly stronger" - I reloaded out of just the same type of raid just couple of days before all of this...

But what really bothers me is how fast those sappers can mine my walls and how many holes they are ready to make. On one side it was first time when I felt like there is something smart fighting against me in this game and I love that those unfair trap labyrinths will be nerfed (which I dont use anyway). On the other side it feels like sappers have too big of advantage because I wasted countless days to build that giant marble wall around my base and it took them literaly 2 seconds to make a hole in it. And wooden walls they pass almost without stoping. Maybe at least speed of wall mining should be tuned down?

Also frustrating thing: priority for repairing damaged things above building new things by construction pawns. Yeah: my base has no tables, no cooking stove, no beds, no doors, but my pawn prefers to repair countless damaged walls above that. Cracks in walls are not an emergency!
Pain, agony and mechanoids.

Tynan

Thanks for the note Mihsan, very useful. Just as info, you can remove the home zone from an area and pawns won't repair there any more.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

Jibbles

Quote from: Elendil on June 22, 2018, 08:48:39 AM

I guess I really fail to see the downside to this, as player can always choose to play on a map without a river.
Because I'd like to play on maps with rivers, and maybe add some mods which add huge rivers or lakes.

I get where you're coming from in your post.  For me, it's just one of those things that needs quite a bit of work to be added and logical.  Things like visually showing that they got soaking wet is unlikely to be implemented.  Just kind of feel like it'll be a popular opinion once the dust settles and if no changes were made to it.  Be cool to see some traits for it though!

-10 for 6 hours is too much for something that is out of my control.  Haven't played too much of 1.0 but already had issues with them choosing water over bridge.  Remember, there are other things at hand like psychic drone and stuff taking big mood hits, all of it stacks up.  For now, it feels like a cheap hit, especially when you come across something like shallow water in a cave or elsewhere on map.



In my experience, the rivers are a bit puny in several maps generated so far.  Maybe just having bad luck there. So when they do cross the puny river it was never worth the mood hit.

Tass237

Quote from: Elendil on June 22, 2018, 07:21:08 AMA combat event that didn't feel that great - sieges. Seemed the only viable strategy is to attack them straight up? A had a weak colony, that wouldn't do very well in a straight up combat. Siege came and the text read 'or you can't try to wait them out'. I never tried that (716 hours of Rimworld says Steam), but they kept getting drop pods with more and more shells. Was this because it was extreme difficulty? If so, very well, all is good and ignore this point. If not - new players might feel betrayed on easier difficulties. I get that sieges are supposed to draw you out, but there should be an alternative - surviving the shelling (which is quite fun actually, so it would be a shame if the game forced you to 'go get them').

Admittedly, this experience is from back in A17, but I had a "Some Difficulty" Cassandra run in which I just let a Siege shell me for a while, (I didn't have adequate ranged weapons to assault, but did have turrets) and I was able to reasonably keep up with putting out fires and repairing damaged stuff. I just had to restrict pawns to stay under roof as I would during Toxic Fallout, and I did receive some injuries, but the siegers eventually attacked without taking what I felt to be an unreasonably long time, and I was able to fend them off with my turret defenses. My base had to go without power for a while when they took out my solar panels, but it wasn't devastating.

Elendil

Quote from: Jibbles on June 22, 2018, 09:25:39 AM
-10 for 6 hours is too much for something that is out of my control.  Haven't played too much of 1.0 but already had issues with them choosing water over bridge.  ater in a cave or elsewhere on map.

I agree that having -10 for 6 hours doesn't make sense in many cases. That's why I suggested having shallow water inflict a mild 'wet' debuff and deep water inflict the serious 'soaking wet' debuff.

Another solution that comes to mind is having a time offset, where upon entering water (even better, shallow water), the pawn wouldn't become wet if they exited within X amount of seconds. In theory, this would filter out all the cases of 'stepped in a puddle while hauling wood' or 'clipped shallow water when stepping on a bridge'.

Overall I agree that at the moment, the debuff can feel too punishing in many cases. Doesn't make much sense for pawns that swam across a lake to have the same debuff as those who stepped into a puddle.

Mihsan

#297
About sieges: only first one is tough. Then you steal some mortars and can fire back on next ones.

Also one time I fired 3 incendiary shells at siege before it could build it's mortars and hit only one guy. Still they all stoped building and decided to attack my base - this might be a bug (act like they lost all mortars if take damage and mortars not built yet? not sure). If they would keep that siege it would be much harder fight for me.
Pain, agony and mechanoids.

ZE

i too feel a bit about the deflection and wet

clothing should have both deflection and damage mitigation as 2 separate things
a shirt has 0 deflection unless made out of somethin special, and poor damage reduction
a flak vest might have 10% deflection, but more damage reduciton
a shiny chest plate might have 50% deflection but average damage reduction

shallow water - wet
chest-deep water - soaked
deep water - drenched

drenched - lowers personal temp by 10 fades to ;
soaked - lowers personal temp by 6, fades to ;
wet - lowers personal temp by 4

shade also lowers personal temp by 6
and wind multiplies these by up to 200%, so a pawn can seek cooler temp in shade and in water, and the breeze too can lower your temp, so extreme desert survival can be possible but also ice sheet survival can be even harder

Elendil

Quote from: Mihsan on June 22, 2018, 09:54:47 AM
About sieges: only first one is tough. Then you steal some mortars and can fire back on next ones.

Also one time I fired 3 incendiary shells at siege before it could build it's mortars and hit only one guy. Still they all stoped building and decided to attack my base - this might be a bug (act like they lost all mortars if take damage and mortars not built yet? not sure). If they would keep that siege it would be much harder fight for me.

I don't think that sieges are too powerful in general, I just think that having a first siege fire 46+ projectiles is a little too much. Maybe if the number of drops they recieve with extra projectiles scaled with colony wealth, it would make for a better experience. Yeah, this isn't a 1.0 thing per se, but it's something that affected my playthrough so I figgured I'd mention it.