Unstable build feedback thread

[Nightinggale]

Regarding "legendary", I think when there's an issue it's because people import assumptions from other games. In every RPG you always end up decked out in all "epic", "legendary" loot etc. This isn't RimWorld. I'm going with the actual meaning of the words "masterwork" and "legendary". Specifically, if something is going to be legendary it has to be so exceptional that people tell stories about it for years and years. Most of us never experience such a thing; in a RimWorld game it's entirely reasonable to never encounter a legendary. But if you do...

The same goes for skill levels. Player complain about how it's impractical to "max out" skills on their characters. I'm just like, dude, have you ever even met a single person who you could say was "maxed out" on any skill at all? Probably not, and most of us never will. When the description says something like "system-class master" it's describing something most people will never encounter, by design.

I can fully support this. Please keep it this way!

Some people like it and some people don't. However everything mentioned by Tynan in this quote was modded in B18 and odds are that they will be in 1.0 as well (if not already without me noticing). All the "I want for my playing style" arguments are rather pointless. The real question is how it should work for new players, who haven't played enough to start looking through mods.

Another question is the part about features for modders. For instance the question about not being able to perform surgery on Mechanoids. Apparently it's disabled/removed in the code, making it extra work for modders to enable again. Why isn't it simply disabled in xml? It would have made sense considering it's something, which is modded for B18 and odds are that most B18 mods will be converted to 1.0 mods.

[Ambaire]

I like how you simplified the leather system, but I think I would actually preffer having just 4 types - light, medium, hard and humanoid. The leathers are still too many (for my taste) and clutter the stockpile unnecesarily.

I also dont see why we shouldnt have just three types of meat - animal meat, human meat and insectoid meat. It would again reduce the amount of clutter in stockpiles and simplify our lives on the Rim. If you want to have more types of meat for feeding the animals, you could make a bill in the butchering table that would make meat just for animal consumption.

If something like this is changed, please do it as a pre-game choice in the options, maybe require a custom scenario option, 'simple leather', 'simple meat', like Masterwork Dwarf Fortress does.

I like the variety, and the different types of leather and so on. I like the blue fur flavor.. homogenization is anti-fun. I like having a large stockpile and seeing all the different material types.

Also, perhaps let pawns use multiple leather types for one clothing piece?

[Gfurst]

Serious question: Should I write on the scenario description "this scenario is unfair"? Because it is, and it must remain so. Especially if you're choosing biomes without healroot.

LoL, its called naked brutality, not naked "walk in the park". Forgive me the off topic and if I might seem a bit blunt, but allow me to draw a parallel here.
In fitness there is something people call "ego lifting", that is the act of lifting more weights than you should, while sacrificing proper form and repetitions, possibly leading to injury. This is kinda the same as "ego playing", that is to play something on the hardest difficulty just because you think you can do it. There is a lot of people that just got used to harder difficulties by just using cheezy techniques, and you know they are cheezy, any raider with more than a peanut for a brain would know not to walk in a suicidal killbox. Regardless don't go playing the game, with a naked start on a freaking frozen wasteland where life indeed shouldn't be possibly, and thinking you are in for fair challenge, because literally it shouldn't be.

I usually like to play on rough chillax, even though there are much less threats in between, its still pretty hard, because believe it or not, I can't rely on raider loot that often, I can't rely on trading either, so year after year I'm counting my food towards starvation by the end of winter. So in turn I get more difficulty in the environmental and survival aspect of it, which is how I like to play. So forget about playing for a difficulty label, and just fucking play the game how you want to play it.

Same deal regarding legendary items, I barely got in +10 skill on some things and I'm seeing some masterworks left and right, not all the time mind you. But why the fuck would you want to fill your base solely with legendary items, like literally, why would that even matter, since people said themselves, there is but a little additional buff to these items. Why people so hung up on using exclusively just prime art work like they live in a freaking museum?

But anyway, sorry if I went blunt off topic.

[Zajedac]

^It could also be a recipe which changes the multiple leathers into light, medium and hard. I understand that some people like the different colours and it may seem nice to them. I dont see a reason why not do this to meat, though.

[drunetovich]

Few latest beta run impressions:

1) New armor system seem nice and fair, shotguns now feel kind of weak though, maybe they need to land a longer stun or something
2) There are still too many leather and wool types, and crafting patchwork stuff feel counterproductive
3) Predator hunt for pawns is annoyingly sneaky, early warnings would be welcome
4) Delivery quests are quite perplexing, most of the time asking for things I don't have and not going to have anytime soon if ever. Other times asking 12 cotton t-shirts in exchange for high end unique and powerful items.

[Greep]

Just got an event for an arcotech legs that is reported to be "unguarded"

:O

:O :O :O :O :O

Increase rewards for trading is great, but for items lying around unguarded, that feels pretty high.

[TheMeInTeam]

First battle with plate result (vs 6 tribals):

On the one hand, my guy in plate mail, advanced helmet, and plasteel gladius got downed (not killed).  On the other hand, he repelled the raid mostly by himself as I did not have the time to properly gear everyone else.  It feels like it's working well.

The bruising mechanic feels like it needs some tuning.  Even though he ended up with only 3 cuts, he ended up with 8 bruises, which is why he got downed fairly quickly.  I think successful deflections should have a chance of no bruise, like maybe 50/50, possibly even as high as 2/3.

How do you decide how much bruising is "too much"?  I like the idea that there is a state between "bad/infection-prone injury" and "no damage whatsoever", still with at least some consequence if you soak in "too many" hits. 

Or put another way, on average how many hits would be reasonable to take before bruising/pain downs based on your estimation?  Knowing that this has to scale onto both player armor and raider armor, I'd rather see the game err on the side of doing more damage than less on grounds that each movement choice matters more and battles are less of a grind, but you can take damage too far too.

But what criteria decides how much is too much or too little?  I ask because I struggle to conceive it.  Broadly speaking, Tynan could pick anything in the range where the weapon variants are still relevant and I wouldn't have a basis for preferring a 25% bruise rate to a 95% bruise rate...what makes one "better" than the other?

Also how did you fight the tribals?  Constantly fighting 3v1 in a doorway 6x is very different from "6 tribals surround and pound one guy in plate armor".

In fitness there is something people call "ego lifting", that is the act of lifting more weights than you should, while sacrificing proper form and repetitions, possibly leading to injury. This is kinda the same as "ego playing", that is to play something on the hardest difficulty just because you think you can do it.

That's pretty disingenuous.  There's a difference between loading one plate too many and the machine electrocuting you when you sit down.  If the game is lifting weights, you expect to lift weights, not to wear insulation/run a marathon/engage in underwater horseback riding.

Same goes with Rimworld.  Events that are the gym equivalent of a dude running up and belly flopping onto the bar while you're trying to do bench press are out of place.  That's not the kind of game Rimworld is .

[Bones]

Also, perhaps let pawns use multiple leather types for one clothing piece?

But you can, there is a bill to patch different leather together, it's called make patchleather, requires 50 if other leather types of I'm not mistaken.

[Greep]

Nothing fancy.  Just set up some defenses around some rocky areas so at the very least I can turn a corner into their faces behind some sandbags.  No door games, though, so it's not "perfect play".  but most people going for heavy armor before deadfalls probably aren't going to be playing perfectly either.

As for how much bruising is good.  That's a tough call to say without doing another battle.  Less than what it currently is, as even when you hit power armor, you will get downed very quickly, since bruising was what mostly caused my being downed.

[Gfurst]

Now for a more objective post about actual issues. ^{and sorry for double post, but I like to keep them separate}

Is this a bug or intended?  A pawn in my colony had a mental break at 72% mood.  The minor break threshold is listed at 35%, which I always took to mean pawns wouldn't ever break if their mood is above that.  The pawn doesn't have any traits that impact break threshold.

I've also been noticing this, mental brakes seems to be happening a lot more like random events now, I usually have near full mood bars and yet some mental brakes happen there, which is somewhat nonsensical. I though I had a picture of this as well, but unfortunately I can't find it.

Multianalizer now doesn't need advanced components

I dislike that, in fact I think there are plenty of opportunities to get advanced components before hand. It felt as good tech divisor. You can easily get adv components from mechanoids, and I even get a trade quest with x19 adv components as rewards, which seems crazy really.

You shouldn't been facing Mechanoids with bolt rifles

I've faced about tree fallen mechs so far, with rifles because I just ain't at that tech level yet. It was alright even though centipedes are such brutal damage sponges, one time it spawned three centipedes which felt unreasonable, however scyther and lancer are a dangerous though manageable opponents. Thing is, it would make sense if its because of their high armor rating, which I didn't know if it was in the game already. Making use of EMP grenades is a good tactic, though unreliable since they can gain immunity back. And also if they have a rocket launcher in between its pretty devastating.

Armor rating/piercing

Again, would make a lot more sense, as I've said earlier, the place armor didn't seem to have any advantage over regular flak vest/pants, I haven't tested the latest builds so I won't comment on it.
Though I have to ask once more time, to move armor into their own category separate from clothing, so you can, you know, smelt and recycle. Also only a nut would wear plate armor without any clothing underneath, it would also make sense so they can have some sort of insulation.

I like how you simplified the leather system, but I think I would actually preffer having just 4 types - light, medium, hard and humanoid. The leathers are still too many (for my taste) and clutter the stockpile unnecesarily.

I also dont see why we shouldnt have just three types of meat - animal meat, human meat and insectoid meat. It would again reduce the amount of clutter in stockpiles and simplify our lives on the Rim. If you want to have more types of meat for feeding the animals, you could make a bill in the butchering table that would make meat just for animal consumption.

I would also like to see map overlay which would show ground fertility, as distinguishing between fifty shades of brown is sometimes quite hard and difference between stony soil and soil (and the border between rich soil and soil) isn't always obvious.

The way its going I really that's how it will end, but with a difference between light/medium/heavy and regular/furry/scaley(?) leather, it seems though a lot of the conventional leathers are still in the game for compatibility purposes. They are also likely to make the same change for meats since so many people are asking.
Regarding ground fertility, I would also think its a good idea, to have a visual overlay for when making growing zones, it would a huge QoL thing but may not be so easy to implement.

[Greep]

Update on armor:


Crafted a plasteel plate armor out of curiosity and that is... some pretty crazy protection.  A normal set was 94.5% sharp protection, and even 80% blunt.  With current bruising, that is somewhat balanced, but I'm guessing this is not intended.

Edit: Actually 40% blunt, that was heat.  Still, pretty crazy stuff.

Edit:  Also side observation:  Just noticed plate covers the neck.  That does make going against tribals somewhat less suicidal than I was expecting.  So that's good

[Ambaire]

Multianalizer now doesn't need advanced components

I dislike that, in fact I think there are plenty of opportunities to get advanced components before hand. It felt as good tech divisor. You can easily get adv components from mechanoids, and I even get a trade quest with x19 adv components as rewards, which seems crazy really.

Not sure where you're finding all these advanced components. I've never seen a single one even on my colonies that have made it an entire year ( I restart a lot, trying different stuff.) I think that was a good change.

[TheMeInTeam]

Nothing fancy.  Just set up some defenses around some rocky areas so at the very least I can turn a corner into their faces behind some sandbags.  No door games, though, so it's not "perfect play".  but most people going for heavy armor before deadfalls probably aren't going to be playing perfectly either.

As for how much bruising is good.  That's a tough call to say without doing another battle.  Less than what it currently is, as even when you hit power armor, you will get downed very quickly, since bruising was what mostly caused my being downed.

Perhaps, but the ability to get downed via bruising (less infection risk, reliable survival as long as you survive the raid ultimately) is by itself a BIG deal, especially since raider ignore downed pawns.  Even with 100% bruise rate, this is still a substantial benefit.  I'd suggest quite a lot of playing around with this before making too many conclusions, even as a player, even if we assume it will never change.  It's a meta-shifting design concept. 

If my old save works I'll give it a good spin since I still have multiple power armors from my early run on ancient dangers, and enemy raids are also starting to scale into armor so I can give these a good stress test on both sides.

Not sure where you're finding all these advanced components. I've never seen a single one even on my colonies that have made it an entire year ( I restart a lot, trying different stuff.) I think that was a good change.

Most typically you'd get one within 1-2 years since mech ships drop them, so it wasn't a big deal.  I still think it's a good change as it would be problematic for people playing phoebe on lower difficulties (mech ship might not happen/be delayed a lot).

[Greep]

Regarding the multianalyzer, remember that this is something unaffected by difficulty settings, and so you have to treat this in a more casual way.  It is a bit too hardcore to lock out someone playing on basebuilder from most of the research tree for a potentially very long time.  So I consider it a good change.

Edit: blugh, ninja

[ashaffee]

Regarding the difficulty. You need a game mode that is close to unwinnable because it adds a skill cap. It definetly by far isn't unwinnable. I survived an entire first year without any healroot or meds for anything besides what I got from traders and it was just for infections. After the first year I finally had a real grower. There isn't anything unfair about anything. The biggest things that were unfair are gone.


There are plenty of things that are stupidly difficult. But that is what you sign up for on naked brutal extreme in a cold biome. Personally even though I can do that... I prefer the tribal colony on rough difficulty. Lets me watch tv and play and go for more design over functionality decisions. Plus I can explore things like caravan. If I feel like getting my ass beat in I like the fact that I might loose a naked brutal in the ice sheet 10 times over before I figure out how to win. Adds to the satisfaction of victory.