Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

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DariusWolfe

Quote from: Boboid on June 29, 2018, 07:15:56 AM
Quote from: DariusWolfe on June 29, 2018, 06:34:08 AM
So, really not digging faction the new faction relationships system.
Playing on Cass/hard/desert(30/60)/river/transhumanists only, day 345 and I have to say - You and I are having a very different faction relations experience.

You quote one line of my post, and ignore all of the other text as to why, and then you go on to say that you're having no problems because you're spending tons of money. Spending money as the primary way to keep your faction relations up is borked, and that was the majority point I was making.

As a matter of fact, the rest of your post ALSO disagreed with me, then completely disregarded every point I was making. Regardless, Tynan has spoken on ranged-in-melee, so it's not really worth arguing about. I'll just be going back to Simple Sidearms as soon as it's updated for 1.0.

Boboid

#976
I disregarded most of what you said because it amounted to "I'm not spending money on this system that can be used to generate money". What more is there to say?
I figured I'd give you an example of how the system could be interacted with in an enjoyable and profitable way.


Even at low wealth it's trivial to find something that has sufficient value to raise relations with any given faction that sends a caravan your way. 1000 rice is +22 relations with an 8 social skill colonist. Ideal? No. Doable? Yes.

Literally any excess a colony generates via any means can be used to increase relations significantly. Once you're allied with a faction it's more or less self perpetuating because the increased access to trade caravans allows for consistent top-ups and efficient transactions. each caravan costing ~300 silver while having ~1000 on hand itself.

Edit: Additionally quests offered by factions reward reputation with that faction.
Depending on the difficulty you're playing on these can range from trivial to risky but given that they're value generating machines in of themselves the additional reputation is a nice cherry on top.
A prison yard is certainly a slightly more elegant solution to Cabin Fever than mine...

I just chop their legs off... legless prisoners don't suffer cabin fever

ZE

i dunno Tynan, u should watch johnwick 1 and 2, some people are pretty proficient with guns, even at close range

i think a person with sufficiently high shooting shouldn't even be approached, should be labeled babayega and you should just leave his dog alone

Ser Kitteh

I think the biggest issue that players may face, especially new ones, is sending out their colonists at the edge of the map only to be attacked by an angry warg or something. The ability to shoot point range does make things a bit easier, but I think not by much. The only time I FORCE my pawns to shoot at melee range is when I get caught off guard. Obviously this is my fault for not taking out all the predators in the area but depending whether I have a bad day or not, I may be either very angry or very nonchalant about the whole thing.

It DOES make melee more valuable, and melee is something most new players don't try to bother with. The addition of plate armor and their ability to disrupt shooting makes them even more valuable early game.

Madman666

This is one thing i can't argue with. Predator ninjas are just horrible. You get distracted for 1 second - you get someone being mauled and you can't do a thing about it. Usually most pawns can deal with a wolf and even a bear at times by shooting point-blank. But i highly doubt mister T will leave ability to shoot in melee for player while disabling it for AI. And if the choice is between everyone shooting in melee or noone - my vote is for latter. Besides... There is brilliant Simple SideArms mod if you're not afraid of delving into deep and addicting abyss of mods for RW.

Wildfire628

Quote from: Tynan on June 29, 2018, 07:22:03 AM
Regarding melee, bear in mind that the ranged weapons are also melee weapons. They'll hit people with gun butts, poke them with barrels, etc. Stats about this are even output on the stats card.

If we need to balance ranged weapons in melee, we'll be balancing the melee verbs of those weapons.

Enemies have always been prevented from shooting while in melee. We removed that for a few days and people were quite disturbed when their melee dude got shot in the face by a sniper he was beating on. So now it's symmetrical, not a trap for noobs (e.g. you don't need to use an unintuitive "shoot him in melee" direct r-click command - this also reduces micromanagement), and a lot easier to balance since the melee and ranged numbers are totally separate for each weapon.

I suspect there may be some balance to do going forward. That said, even with low DPS there are great uses for melee fighters. E.g. have one engage the enemy in melee and let a friend shoot him in the side of the head with a shotgun. Combined arms (just try not to miss too badly).

A sword will lose against a gun at range; a gun will lose against a sword in melee. I think it makes so much sense I'd almost call it an invariant; we'll balance the rest of the system around that.
The more I think/play with it the more I like it. However, I do hope you implement a way to make it easier to get shooters back to shooting range once engaged since a gun should lose to a sword in melee, but I think I'm starting to repeat myself so I better head to bed.

Madman666

In regards to shooters bein able to retreat from melee range - i agree. Currently any kind of melee attack even unsuccessful slows your pawns to a crawl. I like the suggestion from someone earlier about pawns not being staggered\slowed if the blow was a miss, dodge or blocked by armor. That would in theory allow you to break away from melee range if enemy's skill isn't high enough to consistently hit the target.

Syrchalis

Quote from: Madman666 on June 29, 2018, 10:00:06 AM
In regards to shooters bein able to retreat from melee range - i agree. Currently any kind of melee attack even unsuccessful slows your pawns to a crawl. I like the suggestion from someone earlier about pawns not being staggered\slowed if the blow was a miss, dodge or blocked by armor. That would in theory allow you to break away from melee range if enemy's skill isn't high enough to consistently hit the target.
On the flipside I kind of like that any blow you deal to enemies slows them, so I can't really agree with this. However I would like if enemy ranged pawns tried running away instead of engaging in melee, it might actually make melee better because they aren't getting hit back and if at all might only get shot at from other enemies while chasing (hint: shield belt).
For mod support visit the steam pages of my mods, Github or if necessary, write me a PM on Discord. Usually you will find the best help in #troubleshooting in the RimWorld discord.

Madman666

Well thats the point - any blow you actually deal to an enemy should slow and stagger him, but theres really no sense in why missed, blocked and dodged blows still slow enemies... Without that change theres absolutely no point in shooters trying to get away - with the attack speed of most melee weapons, they ll just get beaten down without any retaliation, being constantly slowed by even misses.

PatrykSzczescie

#984
Now you gotta have melee weapon dropped near shooters.

Tynan

If you can just kite away from melee guys, turning and shooting them as you run, the game is broken.

Quote from: PatrykSzczescie on June 29, 2018, 10:22:25 AM
Now you gotta have melee weapon dropped near shooters.

Dare I say, weapon racks? Or a mixed team of melee fighters and shooters? Amaze.
Tynan Sylvester - @TynanSylvester - Tynan's Blog

klun

Quick feedback

-I can't rescue more people (events,hostiles) even while I have a doctor and a medical bed - It only shows capture/strip
-Mental Breaks mixed with moods are devastating my colony, that and some "badass " malaria I had to useluciferium to gave my pawns a fighting chance
-Mini turrets were absorbing charged shoots or not taking dmg by it- even when it had the sound/and fx that was hit
-Snipers are way less accurate than an assault rifle use be the same pawn/ same skill

Quote from: Tynan on June 29, 2018, 12:46:05 AM
Quote from: klun on June 29, 2018, 12:21:53 AM
So its useful to consider that I couldnt care less about your argument because I wasnt even talking to you to begin with

This is statement carried no information, is unkind and unnecessary and not useful; it's a rule violation. Let's not do this please.

I still dont see how Im the one with  unkind/unnecessary post . I wasnt the one trying flame someone and taking my opinion out of context trying to look like a "smartass".

Anyway your house your rules - Im gonna stick to the mod section only

Im sure you are going to deliver something great in the end- Have a nice day.

PatrykSzczescie

Quote from: Tynan on June 29, 2018, 10:24:31 AM
Dare I say, weapon racks? Or a mixed team of melee fighters and shooters? Amaze.

That looks like new kind of gameplay by us, it's fine. But it looks awkward that you have to have melee weapon lying close when your shooters defend your colony, but when they're caravanning - they can hold them in inventory and change weapons whenever they want.

Oblitus

A melee-range shooting was really good. Things like chain shotgun or SMG actually served their purpose as close-to-mid range combat weapons.

What's the point of pistols revolvers SMGs and shotguns now? Bows are dirt-cheap and greatly outperform them. Chain shotguns and SMGs are especially bad due to a low range - you can only hope to shoot once before it becomes a club.

This is especially awful with predators, since you usually only know that you are hunted after pawn takes several hits. Monitoring wildlife tab for predators 24/7 and manually controlling hit squads to deal with them is not exactly fun.

I guess embrasures and sidearms mods won't be retired.




It looks like tamed predators are hunting much more now. The problem is, since they are part of your faction, animals they attack still can go manhunter.

bbqftw

#989
The warm-up of bows is excruciatingly long compared to pistols (which are still top tier weapons for early-mid), I can't see credibly why bows are considered strictly better.

Chain shotgun was already a meme with anemic range (due to intercept chance making a large contribution to fight damage output, effective accuracy in practical combat situation is highly tied to range), now falls into the dumpster even harder.