Unstable build feedback thread

[krizs]

I have my first Toxic Fallout 1.0 and the animals being rotten as soon as they die from toxic fallout is an interesting change.

So I rescued some animals to kill them inside, before they die of toxic fallout. Still the body of the animal  startet rotting right away.
Is this supposed to happen because of the toxic buildup ?

From what I noticed when I had the fallout, after it was announced I could still hunt animals as I was getting ready to stockpile so I can shut my pawns under roofed areas, but I think the instant rotting of corpses upon death is related to their toxic buildup. Since I started hunting immediately as soon as I got the letter, I'm not sure whether those animals had any buildup at that point or not, but possibly they only rot instantly on dying when toxic buildup is at a certain level (maybe past initial?). When I waited for some rhinos to be downed (serious or extreme buildup by then) then they turned rotten when killed instantly.

Feels like it's balanced so you can't just wait for them to die on their own then haul everything in for free food.

[mndfreeze]

[quote author=mndfreeze link=topic=41766.msg418288#msg418288
Tynan I'm still having issues with people dying from things before it hits 100 when I'm beating it and treatment is occuring. First it was the infection I posted a few pages back, now its plague.

I need a savegame from just before this happens, can you or anyone else supply one?

Thanks.
[/quote]

I'm playing on hardcore so no savegame   If/when it happens again I'll save and upload.

[Sig]

That's a terrible way to play, btw. The game is designed for loss and recovery, you're totally neutering it.

I'm gonna redesign how permadeath is presented. Maybe on by default.

Tynan, I respect you as a dev, but making permadeath mandatory would be a terrible idea.

And also useless. All it takes to bypass permadeath is instant alt+F4 and load the last autosave.

It seems pretty apparent to me he just said to change it to being the DEFAULT setting and how its presented, not taking away the ability for turning it off.  Quite simply the checkbox checked on instead of off when you start a new game.  I'm not sure why everyone is missing this and so argumentative over it. 

IMO Tynan has an a vision for how he thinks the game is generally meant to be played as after all he did design it.  He also knows there are tons of other types of players who play for different reasons, hence the ability to check the box on and off, change storytellers, difficulties, etc. 

If someone wants to keep permadeath mode turned on, but then ALT-F4 they are doing nothing but cheating themselves.  IMO switching the defaults to perma on is perfectly fine and would most likely help a lot of new players understand the design goal vision a little easier as I'm sure quite a lot of people don't really grasp it right away.  It's easy for people to see this more as a colony sim where they think they are supposed to play perfectly vs suffer, lose and rebuild.

All of that said, unfair stuff definitely happens in this game.  That's what we are in this thread to help Tynan figure out.  Balance, improvements, etc.  I came to Rimworld from DF and I definitely struggled for a long time (and still do sometimes) to view the game as a story maker and less of a colony sim.  I bounce back and forth between permadeath games and not and some days I'm totally ok with getting my ass handed to me a few hours into a colony to some bad RNG, other times I save scum or ragequit and take a break.  I wish I had started watching hardcore/extreme type players who are all about the story on youtube/twitch before I played and I think I wouldn't have some of the same bad habits I do now.

TL;DR: changing how perma is presented is totally fine and has zero effect on anyone already playing, as does changing the default checkbox to ON instead of off.

I never assumed he wanted to make it mandatory. By replying to that other message I was trying to make a point of how I perceive the permadeath mode as useless in its current state, since it doesn't enforce anything and can be bypassed if the tentation arises, therefore permadeath mode is more in the mindset of the player than anything else.

[Jstank]

Got a weird bug where my pawns stood next to fire but could not put it out. They made a repeated clicking sound. now they are moonwalking around not facing properly I am playing randy extreme on naked brutality start. The pawns are actually completely broken. When I tell a pawn to attack another one they stop being broken. But as soon as they try to put out the fire the pawn goes back to being broken and unable to complete a task.

[Ser Kitteh]

I've been banging about the whole "send stuff to allies via drop pods" since A17 lol. I'm sure Tynan will get around to it!

Also, first experienced drop pods going haywire. I love it! I thought it was only three guys but it's really far apart. I approve of this new event. It reminds of the "raids go wrong" mod, though I'm pretty sure this type of raid going wrong didn't exist in the mod.

Autocannons remain there, turned off. I've got 4 of them around the base but the biggest issue with them is the minimum range mod. This is okay balancing, but I find the mini-turret still the most useful and versatile of all the turrets.

[PatrykSzczescie]

Small feedback.

Why I can't just use drop pods when I send things that needed in trade request quest?
I just wanted to send things with drop pods, But I can only "gift" things to them, and it only increases friendship, so it's not trade.
It seems I must send pawns(with things) to complete trade request quest.
It's bit weird.

You have to send a colonist to complete the task. It's only achievable via caravan.

Is it intended for insects to attack the colony if a deadfall trap is triggered? Because i left plenty of those around the map but insects have gone far away from their original hive and now they are getting aggroed for this...

Changing their behaviour so that they wont attack us anymore because of roof colapse was a great move, but it should also apply to deadfall traps since no human is around and they cant figure that the colony is involved.

They are already too strong with the rework of bullets drastically reducing bleed chance. If they also have an excuse to assault the colony all the time then they will always be game breaking.

I wonder what made them go far away from the hives. Beside this, I doubt devs will change their behavior once they hit deadfall trap. It's not about if it looks realistic, players would get used to abuse the system if they know they can put deadfall traps around hives to get rid of the insects.


Once I tested insectoid behavior on a map with multiple starting hives. When I attack one hive, all insects on the map started assaulting. I think this is troublesome though. They eventually go back if I stop and they're far away but I don't think it should be triggered.

[Galvenox]

hm, I still can't attack anything after the newest patch. tried creating a new colony too.

[SpaceDorf]

From what I noticed when I had the fallout, after it was announced I could still hunt animals as I was getting ready to stockpile so I can shut my pawns under roofed areas, but I think the instant rotting of corpses upon death is related to their toxic buildup. Since I started hunting immediately as soon as I got the letter, I'm not sure whether those animals had any buildup at that point or not, but possibly they only rot instantly on dying when toxic buildup is at a certain level (maybe past initial?). When I waited for some rhinos to be downed (serious or extreme buildup by then) then they turned rotten when killed instantly.

Feels like it's balanced so you can't just wait for them to die on their own then haul everything in for free food.

So moderate toxic buildup does the rotting thing to my tame muffalos which I wanted to butcher for food. .. maybe my 3 caravan guys arrive in time to relieve my people but I guess I have to leave my map for a while to avoid starving to death.

[RemingtonRyder]

I'll be honest, so long as the save operation is reliable (unlike some OTHER ironman games out there) I don't mind permadeath being the default.

Is there any chance though that instead of having to back out to the main menu and go through all the initial new game dialogues we can get a 'try again with the same world settings' option? Eh, I'm sure someone will come up with a mod for that, but I feel like it's one of those things which would be nice to have in the game, even if it isn't a top priority right now.

[ashaffee]

I'll be honest, so long as the save operation is reliable (unlike some OTHER ironman games out there) I don't mind permadeath being the default.

Is there any chance though that instead of having to back out to the main menu and go through all the initial new game dialogues we can get a 'try again with the same world settings' option? Eh, I'm sure someone will come up with a mod for that, but I feel like it's one of those things which would be nice to have in the game, even if it isn't a top priority right now.

I 100% can't agree more. Biggest thing that makes it hard to accept just starting new games all the time is I spend a lot of prep time finding the correct pawns and location I want before playing. I would go a step further and give players a small reward for starting over.

[jchavezriva]

Small feedback.

Why I can't just use drop pods when I send things that needed in trade request quest?
I just wanted to send things with drop pods, But I can only "gift" things to them, and it only increases friendship, so it's not trade.
It seems I must send pawns(with things) to complete trade request quest.
It's bit weird.

You have to send a colonist to complete the task. It's only achievable via caravan.

Is it intended for insects to attack the colony if a deadfall trap is triggered? Because i left plenty of those around the map but insects have gone far away from their original hive and now they are getting aggroed for this...

Changing their behaviour so that they wont attack us anymore because of roof colapse was a great move, but it should also apply to deadfall traps since no human is around and they cant figure that the colony is involved.

They are already too strong with the rework of bullets drastically reducing bleed chance. If they also have an excuse to assault the colony all the time then they will always be game breaking.

I wonder what made them go far away from the hives. Beside this, I doubt devs will change their behavior once they hit deadfall trap. It's not about if it looks realistic, players would get used to abuse the system if they know they can put deadfall traps around hives to get rid of the insects.


Once I tested insectoid behavior on a map with multiple starting hives. When I attack one hive, all insects on the map started assaulting. I think this is troublesome though. They eventually go back if I stop and they're far away but I don't think it should be triggered.

When they get very far away, they wont return to the hive. This is something very easy to notice by playing ludicrous.

Its hard to abuse the system the way you suggest since if done inside or adyacent to the hive, the colony would need to draw out most insects first, get inside from far away (since any colonist close to the hive will die, considering how fast insects are and how resistant they have becomed in recent patches), do all the building and escape without getting brutaly murdered by insects.

Fighting will be required inside the hive as well since i have noticed there is always one or two insects guarding the hive during insect assaults.

The last thing you mentioned is a major issue though. 99% of insects getting aggroed by killing a bug a kilometer away from the rest of the hive is a colony killer

[fecalfrown]

Some 1.0 feedback.

- Stack merging/priority hauling. While the item stack merging and the reduced number of fur/meat types was a welcome change, I feel like it creates problems when you try to set up priority stockpiles. The haulers tend to run in circles merging minor stacks, when really I want them to prioritize hauling new items from further away. I'm not sure how to solve this other than (currently micromanagement) or setting up a built in feature that allows you to prioritize hauling New Items > Merge Stacks.

- Tattered Clothing/Armor Rating. It feels weird to me that my 48% Good Thrumbofur Duster has nearly double the armor value of my Good 100% Heavy Fur Duster. It makes me choose between the tattered clothing debuff and lesser amor value. Maybe this is intended? I feel like there should be a drastic drop off in the protection of a given item once you pass the 50% threshold.

- Categorized Resources. Minor complaint, but it's been there for as long as I can remember. When you hover over the dropdown arrow in the categorized resources layout, if you have cursor edge screen scroll on, your screen moves to the left. The UI should be tweaked to prevent this.

- Ground Penetrating Scanner. If I had to guess, since Tynan revamped the LRMS, he probably has something in mind for this as well. It's currently something you build, turn on when placing deep drills, and then turn back off to save power. Not exactly thoughtful decision making.

[5thHorseman]

But it will alter your game

No, it will alter my game like this:

[m44v]

Still on the same colony, Cassandra medium, mountainous temperate forest.

My map has a river that goes through the mountain, and a hive spawned in it. Since it wasn't inside my base I let it be, as I didn't felt like dealing with it. In retrospect it was a mistake, as I found out that cold snaps don't kill them anymore. Cleaning up a 30 hive infestation with like 40-50 of each type of bug right next to your colony was quite an enterprise.

Anyways my notes:

• Collecting jelly during the night is deadly if the hive happens to be in a river, pawns would rather path over the bugs sleeping in the shore than wet their feet. I have read a lot of rants about the soaking wet moodlet but in this case I would rather take the mood debuff than the chitin claws.
• Pets were more useful than my melee pawns in keeping the bugs off the ranged ones, mostly because I didn't have to micro them to attack. It was already said but It would be great if melee pawns had an "aggressive mode", where they would auto attack any enemy that gets near their player designated position, just like pets do when defending their master. Can be something like a "hold position/defend this place" button for melee pawns.
• There should be a notification when pawns undraft themselves, in one occasion I took too long to bait the insects and I didn't realize that all my pawns left their positions when the bugs came pouring in. Had to load a previous save.
• How do allied caravans decide where to wait in your base? In my colony they always wait in the most awkward and inconvenient places, never near by the entrance. Like far away by the geothermal plant, or in a constrained one tile wide tunnel inside the mountain, or right into the huge insect infestation that grow very close to the colony. I think they should be smarter about it... got a free charge lance and a faction boost though.
• I feel like pets reproduce too quickly, every time I see a "has given birth" message I just kill the puppies, since opportunities for sell them don't come often enough. My fridge has 11 puppy corpses and a least 6 are about to be born in a couple of days. I know I can keep only one gender, but that's a all or nothing proposition, I wish there was a neutering operation so I could tone down the rate of reproduction. That would save me some hassle and having the females almost always with movement debuffs. Also, peg legs for dogs plz.
• Opportunistic hauling seems to never kick in when I want it to, like when miners return to rest, I never saw them bring some of the ore with them.
• I can't forbid replacing components of something that broke, if I'm sort in components I don't want pawns to use them to fix a heater.
• The ingredient radius setting of work benches shouldn't be configured from the bill's details, but from the, I don't know how is called, the bills tab that's always at the left (still configured per bill, I don't mean like a radius common to all). The bill details dialog obscures the center of the screen so this always lead to the awkward "let me move the view around so the work bench is visible after I open the details of the bill".
• I had a grenade-only drop pod raid, that despite the letter saying that they were dropping on top of me, they landed outside of the colony walls, that made them way less terrifying since they were easy targets for my ranged pawns.

[SpaceDorf]

So moderate toxic buildup does the rotting thing to my tame muffalos which I wanted to butcher for food. .. maybe my 3 caravan guys arrive in time to relieve my people but I guess I have to leave my map for a while to avoid starving to death.

It is day 10 now of the toxic fallout, I savescummed a few times to test different strategies.

A second colony did not work out, because I my people did not make the journey of two tiles through the mountains.
Caravan Resting did not work out, because one of my people died from an infected scyther wound,
( yeah, a blight and psychic ship was exactly what I needed when starving ... )
-- EDIT -- the single death caused a breakdown spiral, when the bonded animals went crazy.

But finally when the first colonist collapsed on Decambrary 14th Raider Christmas has come in form of a nice little siege.
And I think my colony is going to make it.