Unstable build feedback thread

[Yoshida Keiji]

This is something that has always happened and it's not exclusive to v1.0. I hate it when my colony decides to throw a party right after we finished battling a crashed ship part and my base needs to repair the City Walls and many other defenses...but no...let's just have fun and leave the entire colony defenseless... This is so stupid and nonsensical...

Players need a way to control when there's gonna be a Party...or at least "Cancel" it if inappropriate timing. But technically speaking, it shouldn't trigger right after a combat when all my pawns just got patched up and need to recover.

Amusingly I love it when they throw a party right after a big battle. It's exactly what I'd do and it makes me think of the ends of episodes of TV shows or something where everybody's patched up sitting around BSing and then someone explains a bit too plainly what the gist of the episode was.

You will change your mind once you switch to Randy Extreme and you get 5 raids one after the other while your colonists are still recovering.

[Jstank]

Doesn't it feel off when you have to use cloth/leather to build a bedroll but just wood to build a regular bed? I feel the regular bed should have some textiles in the recipe.

[seerdecker]

Can someone explain how armor stacks? I feel the UI could do a better job of explaining what's going on. What's overall armor? The average over the body parts?

What I'd like to have is a dialog button, like '?', that gives you a wall of text that explains exactly how it works.

[Oblitus]

Maybe go even further and make turrets from various materials require said material as "fuel", so that having to replace plasteel turret barrels will require plasteel (which should obviously offer more shots per barrel change, than a steel turret with a steel barrel has). I think that would be a much more interesting system, than what we have now.

Better not. Plasteel is kinda scarce now. On my current default-sized map I only have something like 10 tiles of deep plasteel. Barely enough for a set of power armor for everyone. Autocannons would eat through it in a split moment.

Can someone explain how armor stacks? I feel the UI could do a better job of explaining what's going on. What's overall armor? The average over the body parts?

Armor calculation is very misleading now. Tests have shown that overall armor rating is an abstract number that is relevant to nothing. While flak+devilstrand has the same armor as power armor set, the actual efficiency of power armor is way higher.

[Madman666]

Better not. Plasteel is kinda scarce now. On my current default-sized map I only have something like 10 tiles of deep plasteel. Barely enough for a set of power armor for everyone. Autocannons would eat through it in a split moment.

Stick 3 people to LRMSs and you will have some plasteel for turrets to reload. They also should have more shots than steel ones. Or if you don't wanna use plasteel as ammo - use standart steel turrets.

[bbqftw]

Here is some commentary on current resistance system (been messing around with crashland/extreme/nice biome. i am most COMMITTED guy)

* It is a bit misleading, and might end up with people selecting friendly chat. But it appears that friendly chat doesn't lower resistance (or if it does, the game doesn't signal to you the conditions under which it would lower resistance).

* I think strict threshold for opinion / mood should be communicated, because right now its not clear if you are just straight up wasting time / resources. I think I saw situations where a full chat recruit cycle wasn't lowering resistance, not 100% sure. But it was definitely not intuitive how things changed.

* Prisoner sleeping schedule often desyncs from warden. As a result, if I let the game play, warden recruits per day suffers, or I must tediously time every recruit attempt and manually issue command. Result is typically around 2 recruitment attempts per day. 3 if carefully setting alarm to chat every 5 hours (most fun, very interact). A not insignificant amount of times the prisoner falls asleep halfway through a recruitment pitch.

So I have prisoner start at 12 resistance, and with recruitment pitches at +100 relationship / 40 mood - resistance drops by ~1 per pitch.
This is with the easier side of starts (again, crashlanded / extreme / good biome) with anomalously good pawns (with slightly impressive bedrooms / fine meals (!!!!!) going into month 2, this is really the high end of moods you will get on this difficulty at early points in the game). Pawn has no scars, only light mood malus from transhumanist.

So lets do some math here - at 2 recruitment pitches per day, that's 12 meals and ~3-4 full days of productive wardening (factoring in travel time since pawns are pretty silly and path inefficiently to their other jobs). And even with a decent social (~9-10) warden you are typically looking on average of 10 attempts to actually recruit said pawn (you get some bonus from recruiting at +100 relation. but its not THAT amazing). Its not like social is particularly easy to train either, even though it did get buffed around ~50% xp rate relative to B18.

So lets add that up - 20-25 meals, 6-8 days of wardening. That is your upfront cost for adding a prisoner to the colony. And this is with extremely favorable colony with meshed skillsets, quick fine meals + impressive bedroom, and ~9-10 social. If any of those are worse, the cost is even higher.

Tynan, you say you want a large part of ingame drama to come from worthless and useless pawns. But when the simple act of recruitment can often straight up cost you 30% of your entire colony's productivity over the course of a quadrum (think medicine, wardening time, travel time for growers, cooks, and warden, growing time, cooking time, hauling time - it is a lot especially once you factor in inefficient hauling on vanilla - then there's potential risks of prison break, etc. etc.) then any competent player will necessarily be highly selective.

Of course, there are incap refuges but you yourself said you didn't want noob traps in the game? 

[Oblitus]

Better not. Plasteel is kinda scarce now. On my current default-sized map I only have something like 10 tiles of deep plasteel. Barely enough for a set of power armor for everyone. Autocannons would eat through it in a split moment.

Stick 3 people to LRMSs and you will have some plasteel for turrets to reload. They also should have more shots than steel ones. Or if you don't wanna use plasteel as ammo - use standart steel turrets.

3 people? It is assuming that I have 3 spare people. And then I'll have to go and mine it, and mining plasteel takes forever. I kinda prefer to run my bases with a skeleton crew (6-10 pawns). I'd prefer to have highly armored turrets with standard ammo.



Got an escape pod. She immediately self-tended and ran away from the map. Something is seriously wrong with them.

[Madman666]

3 people? It is assuming that I have 3 spare people. And then I'll have to go and mine it, and mining plasteel takes forever. I kinda prefer to run my bases with a skeleton crew (6-10 pawns). I'd prefer to have highly armored turrets with standard ammo.

Well yeah, with just 10 people there won't be any way to have a decent contingent working on finding resources (and mining them also). But with just 10 people you don't really need plasteel turrets either. If the armor system for structures to be reworked - it would be enough to have steel ones (those should have at least medium armor), since you won't be getting overbloated game ending raids.

[Oblitus]

3 people? It is assuming that I have 3 spare people. And then I'll have to go and mine it, and mining plasteel takes forever. I kinda prefer to run my bases with a skeleton crew (6-10 pawns). I'd prefer to have highly armored turrets with standard ammo.

Well yeah, with just 10 people there won't be any way to have a decent contingent working on finding resources (and mining them also). But with just 10 people you don't really need plasteel turrets either. If the armor system for structures to be reworked - it would be enough to have steel ones (those should have at least medium armor), since you won't be getting overbloated game ending raids.

Actually, with 10 people I desperately need better turrets, because in endgame raids I am outnumbered 1:10 to 1:20. Pawn count have only marginal effect on raid size.



Another infestation. Since now efficient fighting requires holding the line and covering shooters with melees, moving requires a tedious amount of micro. Having to use the context menu (no, I don't want to drop my weapon or attack my ally, and consuming spelopede corpse is not in my intentions too) does not help. Also, there should be an option to open/close door without trying to enter it when the pawn is nearby. And please, add an option to deconstruct hives without drafting.

[Madman666]

Actually, with 10 people I desperately need better turrets, because in endgame raids I am outnumbered 1:10 to 1:20. Pawn count have only marginal effect on raid size.

Well you have a point if thats the case. Though it isn't really better if you have 20 pawns, since you are forced to have a lot more stuff for them including armor and weapons, which ends up bloating raids more and more. Infestations and mech raids get especially insane. Let the refueling system stay as it is then. But damn turrets could really use some armor.

[Boboid]

Armor calculation is very misleading now. Tests have shown that overall armor rating is an abstract number that is relevant to nothing. While flak+devilstrand has the same armor as power armor set, the actual efficiency of power armor is way higher.

Wouldn't it have been easier and more accurate to say " I have no idea "?
At least then someone isn't going to assume that you're giving them a piece of information.

The overall armor figure on a character's Gear tab is some sort of average armor value across all bodyparts. I don't know what the formula for it is but I can tell you for certain that it's not particularly informative. No matter what that number tells you putting on pants is not going to protect your eyes.


In regards to the armor system - The description of it in game is 100% accurate with the exception of the fact that it doesn't cover how pieces of armor that cover the same location interact with one another. I don't know how that works.
It could be additive, using some average values, or some other system entirely.

[Oblitus]

Armor calculation is very misleading now. Tests have shown that overall armor rating is an abstract number that is relevant to nothing. While flak+devilstrand has the same armor as power armor set, the actual efficiency of power armor is way higher.

Wouldn't it have been easier and more accurate to say " I have no idea "?
At least then someone isn't going to assume that you're giving them a piece of information.

I have an idea. I can give you the decompiled formula if you want. But it won't be a piece of information, it would be a piece of data. And information derived from that data is - overall armor rating is an abstract number that has little to do with actual efficiency.

[Greep]

I looked it up myself:  it's the same system as the old system:  Each armor layer has it's shot at reducing damage, and it can further reduce it if both bruise.

The reason power armor is better is because 2 sets of 50% armor is worse than 1 set of 100% due to penetration.  Not to mention if I had to choose between taking some extremely light bruises and some completely unmitigated cuts, or some bigger bruises and no cuts, I'd take the bigger bruises, as a big bruise is unlikely to knock out the entire appendage.

Also regarding flak: it only coveres the torso.  If you actually want to just worry about torso damage, flak + devilstrand is actually better, but the neck is important and I don't think flak covers that, and losing limbs isn't that great either.

[Oblitus]

Level 8 doctor in a decent hospital and industrial medicine reliably tends with 90%+ quality. Kinda makes glitterworld medicine obsolete. Maybe rework it into a serum-type item that instantly tends all conditions with 100% quality bypassing pawn's medicine skill? Then it would be valuable backup in case of emergency.

Also regarding flak: it only coveres the torso.  If you actually want to just worry about torso damage, flak + devilstrand is actually better, but the neck is important and I don't think flak covers that, and losing limbs isn't that great either.

Limb loss is not that bad since we can craft bionics now. The neck is still a big concern though.

[Yoshida Keiji]

Hey Tynan I must complain about Disassembling Centipedes, I only get 10 Plasteel after shooting them like 1000 times? All their armor resistance came out of 10 Plasteel? Plate Armor requires 170 materials, a full set of Flak (vest/pants/jacket) requires 60+60+70= 190 materials, Power Armor requires 135 and 18 components...

Can you please increase the amount of Plasteel out of salvaging Centipedes? I understand that disassembling means we can only salvage a small amount... but only 10 units it's way too miserable...