Unstable build feedback thread

[RawCode]

there are separate debuffs for harvesting organs and for killing prisoner by harvesting and for "innocent prisoner died".
harvesting 2x lung from random raid surviror to heal astma result in -20 for week that kinda absurd penalty if you take in account price of lungs for trade - just 300.

[Copperwire]

Create a duplicate set of all walls and floors used in map gen and assign them a wealth of zero? "Ancient Slate Wall" etc.

As is, the 16k wealth buffer creates a strong incentive to remove all starting objects as soon as possible.

[Tass237]

I would point out that the casual Rimworld player, (and as I would also assert, the TYPICAL Rimworld player) not only doesn't pay attention to how much wealth they are gaining as a numerical score, but many if not most of them are unaware of the fact that the game scales difficulty based on wealth. This is a good thing. If an experienced hardcore Rimworld player wants to avoid things or use certain tactics to strategically reduce wealth, that is Meta-Gaming. Complain about balance if you want, but to claim that the wealth of a thing is "prohibitive" or makes the thing a "newb-trap" is a meta-gaming idea that has lost any perspective of what the typical game-play experience looks like.  We're trying to help Tynan and the other devs make this game better for all players. Make balance suggestions if you think a thing should have a lower cost for legitimate gameplay balance reasons ACROSS ALL PLAYSTYLES, but if it just makes your specific scenario worse, please just mod it to your preference and don't complain here.

there are separate debuffs for harvesting organs and for killing prisoner by harvesting and for "innocent prisoner died".
harvesting 2x lung from random raid surviror to heal astma result in -20 for week that kinda absurd penalty if you take in account price of lungs for trade - just 300.

Seems reasonable. Easy to avoid terrible penalty by simply not having your colonists be terrible people.

[5thHorseman]

Better to build with than getting fresh materials though.

Isn't it anyway, though? You don't even need a stone cutter bench.

[Koek]

... Make balance suggestions if you think a thing should have a lower cost for legitimate gameplay balance reasons ACROSS ALL PLAYSTYLES, but if it just makes your specific scenario worse, please just mod it to your preference and don't complain here.

How rude.
What you are suggesting is exactly what people are doing, which is giving feedback on metagame mechanics which could lead to better balancing and perhaps a less unfair (especially to the unknown player) way of increasing difficulty over time while keeping things fair when you get beaten up.

When people come to this game thinking it is just a basebuilder they'll get destroyed and start to look for answers, resulting in them learning either to accept their losses or game colony wealth.
As it stands now (and if I understand correctly) losses are unavoidable if you want to keep raid strength in check while increasing colony wealth, a thing people want to adress in the feedback they present here, something which can be loaded with frustration or dissapointment in 'gaming the system' at times, but it's feedback nonetheless.

We don't need to keep record of all playstyles in our feedback. It's up to the developers to sift through all the variable feedback players present and decide if and how to implement certain suggestions and balances.
Suggesting people just 'mod it to their preference and don't complain here' adds nothing. Please keep that to yourself.

Cheers

[MoronicCinamun]

I do understand that.  However, why then is there a "claim" tool in the game if it has no use.  That should be what tells the AI about the floors and walls, that "I" own them, or maybe additionally if they are included in home areas that should inform the AI.  If I pave my colony in gold or silver, then those walls and floors are INSIDE my colony and "I" created them and of course the AI should count that.

Also, if they have never been discovered and are still covered by fog-of-war then they shouldn't be counted, as happens with the ancient dangers and places buried in mountains and large hills, or even out in the open if they don't have a break in the walls.

The only use the claim tool has now is claiming turrets and doors etc on event maps. Otherwise yeah it is pretty useless.

Well there is one other use: your colonists don't repair stuff that isn't owned by you. Say you build your starting room in one of the little ruins that litter the place: you fill in the gaps in the walls, door included, and throw a roof on it.
If you don't drag over it with the claim tool (or ya know, click each block individually and hit "claim", but that's much more a pain), then your colonists won't repair it, minus the stuff you built yourself.

[Tynan]

It happened again. I did not really play much since the last post and I can't remember another social fight occurring since then.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/nation-world/man-has-finger-bitten-off-during-melee-at-massachusetts-golf-course/507-585586890

[Starbug3D]

Well played, Tynan.  I forget if I posted this before, but my recovering addict had his eye bitten out in a social fight.  Don't do drugs, kids.

[5thHorseman]

Also, if they have never been discovered and are still covered by fog-of-war then they shouldn't be counted, as happens with the ancient dangers and places buried in mountains and large hills, or even out in the open if they don't have a break in the walls.

They don't. At least, they didn't when this was last tested which was I think 2 builds ago. If you have a test that shows wealth starts high and does not go up when a danger is opened the forum would like to see it.

[xion1088]

Any change log for 0.19.2003?

[Tynan]

Yes, was just about to post about it. There's a new build, hooray!

There are various bug fixes and some balance changes. I don't want to prejudice you guys too much, but I will note that the ship's component costs are reduced a good chunk now. If anyone makes the ship from here on I'd love to hear how it feels in terms of length. I think it's in a pretty good place now.

[5thHorseman]

Also, if they have never been discovered and are still covered by fog-of-war then they shouldn't be counted, as happens with the ancient dangers and places buried in mountains and large hills, or even out in the open if they don't have a break in the walls.

They don't. At least, they didn't when this was last tested which was I think 2 builds ago. If you have a test that shows wealth starts high and does not go up when a danger is opened the forum would like to see it.

Hell I'll just test it now.
New game, cassandra peaceful NB, reload anytime, no mods, random site with a random person because who cares.

Dropped into a very empty map, 4 abandoned buildings and 9 walls by my count. Wealth was 4893.28. Buildings were 3398.28 and Creatures were 1495. By trying to form a caravan I found that my pawn was worth 1495, so it tallies. The entire map is worth about 2.5 naked people. There was an abandoned structure.

I went into dev mode and found that "fun points" was 3.5 but everything else in the dev graph was 0. I also turned on God mode and with it destroyed one wall of the structure.

There was a shock lance, a legendary wooden grand sculpture, an insanity lance, 10 luciferium, and 4 cryptosleep caskets, in addition to the flooring revealed.

Wealth did not go up so I fast forwarded. I had the pawn pick some berries just for hunger's sake, and at about 19h the wealth jumped to 10992.56 total, 4895.16 buildings, 4602.4 items, and still 1495 creatures. So hidden items don't count.

I then in God Mode deconstructed everything, which amusingly also removed mountains (they collapsed too). The roof collapsed and the 4 pods were destroyed, and 4 bad guys came out. I kited them as long as I could, got shot, went down, and with 2 hours of life left the graph changed. Item value went down to 3059.83 (the pods plus sculpture, counting the raw materials they and all the walls dropped). Creature value dropped to 175 (ouch) and Building value REMAINED THE SAME.

So, floors count but walls do not. Hidden items do not. The floors on a map are about the worth of 2-3 starting colonists.

[Tynan]

I'm finding that the initial cost of all the walls and floors on a new map is excessive.  Tynan, why did you add this in?  Why is that included in my town's worth?  Please give a reason for this change. I also assume that if there are any hidden caches of ancient items that they are also added in.

Please consider removing this and making it only add to the colony's wealth if you claim the construction or if you deconstruct it down to the blocks.  And please don't add the special items inside the ancient buildings until they are opened.

Because you can use these items. Also note floors and items can't be claimed/unclaimed, so no claim-based solution will work for them.

The complaint seems to be that counting more things for wealth makes the game harder. But it's easy for us to balance things back out to create the same results as before, which we've done. Nothing is more difficult than before, it's just less broken. E.g. sea ice at game start is no longer as attractive to raiders as a colony on a giant sheet of gold floor.

Happy to say your assumption about including undiscovered items is wrong.

[Tynan]

why then is there a "claim" tool in the game if it has no use.

Claim is a directive to your pawns to care about, repair, and use an item. E.g. your pawns won't repair things you never claimed and generally won't use them. There are some things about claim which are a bit odd (or the concept of buildings having factions at all given they don't have minds), but overall it's been useful.

[RemingtonRyder]

It's worth noting that, at least when I looked a couple of days ago, the first $14000 of wealth doesn't generate any fun points.