give some love to melee

[ashaffee]

Rinceworld tbh if they ever added a feature that made my melee fighters act like a released animal I'd never turn it on.

I want 100% control of where they go. I don't want to forgotten to look at one melee guy then realize he just chased himself into a set of 4 people.... Also melee is way more effective with focus fire. Either manually selecting targets to shut down gunners or gang banging a single target at a time.

If any play style told a character to just run out in the open and swing your club... It would have to be some heavily modded easy mode kinda stuff. Sounds like you are need to create a mod to make melee characters respawn the same way as animals and your personal needs are set.

Don't go bashing our devs for not responding to your extremely personal request that doesn't even suit vanilla gameplay.

[Adamiks]

Well, this is a lil bit of a shitshow.

Anyway, i agree with the suggestion, i've never played melee-only colonies, but sometimes i have to resort to close combat, and man, having to click on your every single colonist and tell them what to do really is a bother.

Rinceworld tbh if they ever added a feature that made my melee fighters act like a released animal I'd never turn it on.

You'd probably change your mind if you had about 20-30-ish colonists and about as many enemies. It wouldn't be like releasing animals anyway, cause you could order them to do something else at any given moment. It's a pretty simple thing and it wouldn't hurt to add it (that + other combat stances)

I mean, imagine a scenario - Few of your colonists firing at the raiders, with guns, and just behind raiders - enclosed room (no doors) full of brawlers. The moment you deconstruct that wall, they're just screwed, there's no need for micromanagement. Yet, i have to spend like a solid minute or two to make sure they don't all attack the same target and end up doing nothing at all (because of the "wait for your turn" melee combat system).

In short:
Suggestion is solid, the way it was presented wasn't very nice, possibly a little bit of a language barrier, but still.

[TheMeInTeam]

Anyway, i agree with the suggestion, i've never played melee-only colonies, but sometimes i have to resort to close combat, and man, having to click on your every single colonist and tell them what to do really is a bother.

I agree it's micro intensive, but so is proper gun play (simply sitting behind a piece of cover and trading shots is misuse of many of the game's firearms and gives raiders significantly less disadvantage than you can arrange).

What algorithm can reasonably "automate" melee though?  When I think about actual in-game situations, the overwhelming majority of possible automated actions would be a liability. 

Even something basic like moving to melee a raider shooting at a pawn is sometimes crucial and sometimes a lethal mistake.

[Adamiks]

Anyway, i agree with the suggestion, i've never played melee-only colonies, but sometimes i have to resort to close combat, and man, having to click on your every single colonist and tell them what to do really is a bother.

I agree it's micro intensive, but so is proper gun play (simply sitting behind a piece of cover and trading shots is misuse of many of the game's firearms and gives raiders significantly less disadvantage than you can arrange).

What algorithm can reasonably "automate" melee though?  When I think about actual in-game situations, the overwhelming majority of possible automated actions would be a liability. 

Even something basic like moving to melee a raider shooting at a pawn is sometimes crucial and sometimes a lethal mistake.

Frankly? I rarely micro-manage ranged, unless i'm really in a pinch or they have an assassin, someone with grenades, etc. Against stuff like trbies tho? Just put your men in good positions, sit back, relax, if they don't break the defences, i dont have to do anything, just properly manage the wounded afterwards.

I usually just rely on structural advantages, not really killboxes (rip my good old friend), just making sure its a better deal for me than it is for them, and that's usually enough to win (i play at least on rough, higher if it becomes too easy).

Of course it can lead to a bad situation if you just let them on autopilot, but, that's a risk you take as a player if you don't micromanage (for example, me and ranged, too lazy if i think i can win without it). Also, you still need to get the correct positions going. Aaaand you can always start micromanaging when it's needed, to make sure they just don't walk into a pawn firing (pause button is for that).

So yeah, just a simple Move To Area & Attack (move to area, attack everyone within X tiles you come across, i'd say simple and fair) move would be sufficient for me. I mean, ranged do that - they shoot on sight, but it's quite awkward with melee, only few of them fight (or rather get attacked first) and rest of em are watching, unless you tell them all what to do.

[ashaffee]

Again the game is designed to be played vanilla with one of the 4 starting conditions. If you modify your experience to not reflect these modes, example 80% forced brawler trait. Then you need modifications to support your game play. This request is extremely specialized and adds something a vanilla experience doesn't gain much from.

In vanilla and you don't even want your melee character taking a step away from placement because friendly fire will destroy them. Not to mention they need to take tatical flanks to avoid guns. If you are modifying your game play even more to remove guns from the game, then just go a step further and make a mod for this unique experience you personally want.

Melee only runs is a modifications from vanilla designed scenarios. Special cases like a breach in defense still aren't designed purely for melee. Shotguns and miniguns have more place here.

Melee has tons of uses but running out in the open on their own in-between a firing field isn't one.

[TheMeInTeam]

IMO best situation for melee is when an isolated raider is attacking or targeting onto something else and you can get a pawn to initiate melee on it before it targets back.  This will lock a ranged enemy into melee.  It's possible to send 10 man raids fleeing this way with 4 pawns, though you need enough built up to allow yourself to isolate the enemy each time.

While I've often employed that to get through early game on extreme, on previous patches melee fell off a cliff when it came to defending sappers, sieges, and mechanoids on extreme.  With the tweaks to armor and sharp vs blunt, that might be different now, but I still haven't had the chance to really test the system out since the newest update for 1.0 that introduced the current armor.  I think vs sieges and sappers shooting them with something will still be more practical.

[Adamiks]

Again the game is designed to be played vanilla with one of the 4 starting conditions. If you modify your experience to not reflect these modes, example 80% forced brawler trait. Then you need modifications to support your game play. This request is extremely specialized and adds something a vanilla experience doesn't gain much from.

In vanilla and you don't even want your melee character taking a step away from placement because friendly fire will destroy them. Not to mention they need to take tatical flanks to avoid guns. If you are modifying your game play even more to remove guns from the game, then just go a step further and make a mod for this unique experience you personally want.

Melee only runs is a modifications from vanilla designed scenarios. Special cases like a breach in defense still aren't designed purely for melee. Shotguns and miniguns have more place here.

Melee has tons of uses but running out in the open on their own in-between a firing field isn't one.

Well, i don't quite know where to start because everything you said is very far from being on-spot..

You can have melee-only colonies or melee-majority colonies in vanilla, i don't see your point there at all.  You don't need brawler traits either, just give everyone with a passion or high enough melee a sword, recruit only those who do have those, and yeah, that's it. And as to how to avoid fighting out in the open? Not really that hard, a little bit of base-building and planning. I never mentioned mods nor am i using any melee-focused mods (if you don't count mods that add general equipment often including some melee weapons)

In vanilla and you don't even want your melee character taking a step away from placement because friendly fire will destroy them. Not to mention they need to take tatical flanks to avoid guns.

Yes, that is why you *don't* put your melees in front of your ranged (if you have them in the first place) and that's why you make those tactical flanks yourself - build em up.

Melee has tons of uses but running out in the open on their own in-between a firing field isn't one.

Agreed. I never implied anything of that sort, though.

[TheMeInTeam]

Putting melee in front of ranged is situational at best.  You're massively spiking the odds of your pawns being hit by bullets if anybody is shooting at you, anything that explodes or creates AoE fires is a huge risk factor, and you have to aim distant and use bullet intercept on your shooters to prevent even them having a chance of hitting your melee with wild shots.

You might do this against non-overwhelming numbers of manhunters, but against nearly anything else on upper difficulties it's not a viable arrangement.  You're better off isolating for melee and/or shooting enemies and not letting them return fire or get close.

[Adamiks]

Putting melee in front of ranged is situational at best.  You're massively spiking the odds of your pawns being hit by bullets if anybody is shooting at you, anything that explodes or creates AoE fires is a huge risk factor, and you have to aim distant and use bullet intercept on your shooters to prevent even them having a chance of hitting your melee with wild shots.

You might do this against non-overwhelming numbers of manhunters, but against nearly anything else on upper difficulties it's not a viable arrangement.  You're better off isolating for melee and/or shooting enemies and not letting them return fire or get close.

^

Putting melees in front is only good against animals or when most enemies are also melee *or* if you have shield belts - just let them soak the damage (that's what i do with pacifists... give them a shield and use them as a meatwall, that's the only thing they are good for in a fight).

Usually what you wanna do with melees is use them for flanks, close quarters fights or not letting someone with grenades etc use them at all. Flanking doesn't mean that you have to go across the entire map. You can (like i previously mentioned) make a small room and deconstruct the wall when raiders pass by. They will usually just ignore it. Or kill-hallways, same thing - make a long or semi-long hallway and make it attractive for raiders then deconstruct the walls. Or use doors, but i'm not sure if they won't just choose to attack them..

[ashaffee]

The reason I stated putting your melee out in front of everyone to attack being a bad idea is because of the suggestion to have melee attack target command added to the game was the central topic of this thread. Yes a very particularly made vanilla game with a very particularly made base could facilitate this but it is still bordering the lines of modification.

Just like stating I want to do a no pause run and want balances added to help me do this. To add a feature that would make melee targets navigate out of your control to potentially run into dangerous locations to attack would get people crying for balance patch after balance patch and tons of tweaking to perfection to make  an EXTREMELY rare tactic for victory viable.

Unless you design your base around it then it will never be safe to have a auto attacking melee without major coding work. The simple answer to implement it in the game would take the exact coding from animals release function and give that to melee targets.

When I was having fun with my chicken zerg games or boar zerg. The release command always ended in so many of them injured or dead. Which is perfectly okay with me because I didn't want to micro manage 100 chickens to attack. But the 10-30 colonist I may have would be used tatictifully so I don't take losses needlessly.

Like I said melee has a great many uses in every game I play besides just shield bubble. But if they moved without me telling them where to go I'd easily not notice giving them friendly fire. I would not notice them going into a loosing fight. If I am in the situation you stated when I have 20+ colonist vs a 40+ raid group and I am fighting battles in like 5+ groups. How would making melee fighters act like animals with the release command useful in this situation in vanilla?

[Adamiks]

Just like stating I want to do a no pause run and want balances added to help me do this. To add a feature that would make melee targets navigate out of your control to potentially run into dangerous locations to attack would get people crying for balance patch after balance patch and tons of tweaking to perfection to make  an EXTREMELY rare tactic for victory viable.

It would be *most* useful on melee-only colonies, but it would be useful in any regular colony, as well. So your comparison to "no pause run" is just a really poor. Adding something like Hold Position/Attack on sight wouldn't be exclusively for melee-only players, it would be for all the players, because melee fighting is a big part of the game.

Unless you design your base around it then it will never be safe to have a auto attacking melee without major coding work. The simple answer to implement it in the game would take the exact coding from animals release function and give that to melee targets.

What major coding work are you talking about exactly? The AI is already there, only minor tweaks and adding the button are all the work needed.

When I was having fun with my chicken zerg games or boar zerg. The release command always ended in so many of them injured or dead. Which is perfectly okay with me because I didn't want to micro manage 100 chickens to attack. But the 10-30 colonist I may have would be used tatictifully so I don't take losses needlessly.

Good for you. Saying that using it might have negative results is not even an argument, though.
Micromanaging is *always* better, in any game. Deciding to let the game do something automatically can often have some risks. If you don't want to risk it, just don't use it - nobody forces you to. However there are people who would like to use it, yet, they can't. The question is ... why? It's an extremely simple thing to implement and should be a part of the game a while ago.

Like I said melee has a great many uses in every game I play besides just shield bubble. But if they moved without me telling them where to go I'd easily not notice giving them friendly fire. I would not notice them going into a loosing fight. If I am in the situation you stated when I have 20+ colonist vs a 40+ raid group and I am fighting battles in like 5+ groups. How would making melee fighters act like animals with the release command useful in this situation in vanilla?

Letting them move automatically would be an **option** in the form of a button (just the way you draft colonists). If you ordered them to attack and then didn't notice that they got themselves in a bad situation **it's only your fault and isn't an argument against implementing this feature**

Imagine if ranged fighters had an option to "Hold Position", in which they would do literally nothing but stand, not shoot, nothing. Would it be harmful to your gameplay in any way? No, it wouldn't. It would be your decision to use it, and if you used it and didn't pay attention so the colonist ended up dying, it would only be your fault and not the feature's.

Another example - In vanilla game you can decide whether pawns should flee, attack or ignore threats. If i tell them to ignore threats and that results in some of them dying, that is *my* fault, it doesn't make the feature itself bad.

This feature *wouldn't* be bad either, it could have negative results if *used incorrectly*
Implementing the feature wouldn't take a lot of effort either but greatly improve lives of some, minorly improve lives of others and not make anyone's live worse

Long story short:
-Easy to implement
-Optional
-In form of a button
-Ai is already there
-Only positives, no negatives

I think i said everything that i have to say, we're just going in circles at this point and nothing constructive is being added to the discussion

[Rincewind]

Imagine if ranged fighters had an option to "Hold Position", in which they would do literally nothing but stand, not shoot, nothing. Would it be harmful to your gameplay in any way? No, it wouldn't. It would be your decision to use it, and if you used it and didn't pay attention so the colonist ended up dying, it would only be your fault and not the feature's.

Another example - In vanilla game you can decide whether pawns should flee, attack or ignore threats. If i tell them to ignore threats and that results in some of them dying, that is *my* fault, it doesn't make the feature itself bad.

This feature *wouldn't* be bad either, it could have negative results if *used incorrectly*
Implementing the feature wouldn't take a lot of effort either but greatly improve lives of some, minorly improve lives of others and not make anyone's live worse

Long story short:
-Easy to implement
-Optional
-In form of a button
-Ai is already there
-Only positives, no negatives

I think i said everything that i have to say, we're just going in circles at this point and nothing constructive is being added to the discussion

heh add here turrets, let's all have full melee experience when you have to manage every step. Ranged must be guided by hand, turrets do nothing without player. Voila. Have fun with 100 pawns raid on extreme, maybe in a week you will handle it

[Adamiks]

Yeah, that's a fair point ^

Ranged attack automatically, so why can't melee do that, not even by default but just if you tell them. Like i said, should have been done a while ago

[TheMeInTeam]

Drafted melee does attack hostiles that go into melee range.  The potential QoL issue/risk is them moving automatically.  It would be the only time in the game drafted pawns do this, and it has a lot of potential problems.

[ashaffee]

Why I am stating that it is a coding issue is because the second they start moving on their own then people will cry that they need to pick their paths better. Like avoiding turret locations. Currently the code in place exist with animal release function like I stated.

The only moments it will be safe for a group of melee to move and attack is in a easy raid. A harder raid means them moving causes friendly fire from guns and turrets.

If all you want is a release function to melee why not copy and paste the code in and make a mod.

I still don't see a convincing argument behind melee characters moving without micro to be useful in any situation in rough and extreme. Easy fights sure fine just let them run around chasing.