We need a Trader Spot in vanilla before 1.0 release

[Namsan]

I would like to use it, but I probably won't able to stop abusing it.
It's too easy to abuse a trader spot, so I prefer to not have it.

[Perq]

Locking them out of bedrooms is one thing. That could be implemented as people locking their doors. Which would also keep out art watchers.

But a trader spot is easily abused to kill traders and steal their stuff. Either by weapons fire or some sort of heat trap. Lot of people do that already - especially on ice sheets. As a mod that's perfectly fine and I really like it (in fact a post by me inspired its creation), but putting it into vanilla isn't as simple

It can be abused, once or twice. But then relations drop and no caravan will show up (probably screwing you up in long run).
Not to mention it makes sense from thematic point of view - you show a caravan place to stop by. If you lead them into a trap, they will die and you will be able to loot them. But they faction will also drop relations with you, because caravan haven't came back.

[DariusWolfe]

It's been shown that most of the time you can get a net-gain from attacking a caravan, assuming you're able to take it out successfully, because you can release any pawns that are downed instead of killed, and can use the cash earned from killing them and taking their stuff to buy up your relationship.

As such, I think Trader Spot will likely never be implemented in Vanilla; If you mod it in and abuse it, it's not the developer's concern to balance cheesy mod tactics, but if he makes it Vanilla, he now has to figure out how to minimize abuse. 

[5thHorseman]

It's been shown that most of the time you can get a net-gain from attacking a caravan, assuming you're able to take it out successfully, because you can release any pawns that are downed instead of killed, and can use the cash earned from killing them and taking their stuff to buy up your relationship.

As such, I think Trader Spot will likely never be implemented in Vanilla; If you mod it in and abuse it, it's not the developer's concern to balance cheesy mod tactics, but if he makes it Vanilla, he now has to figure out how to minimize abuse.

Or they could patch that loophole with progressively more expensive punishments and payments.

Kill one guy, lose 20 rep. Kill 2, lose 40 more. Kill 3, lose 80 more and the chance to get any back for a year. Kill 4, go dead last on the list and spawn a raid as if you were the next level up in wealth. Etc.

[AileTheAlien]

They could also make faction relationships go into deeper negatives. i.e. Instead of capping out at -100, you can get down to -infinity, with more expensive costs for buying your way out with prisoner releases or gifts.

[DariusWolfe]

5thHorseman: Sure, but that's exactly the sort of thing I meant when I said "but if he makes it Vanilla, he now has to figure out how to minimize abuse"

Because your suggestions might work, and they might not. I can see several ways that those idea will punish people who aren't trying to cheese the system, so that then becomes something else that Tynan and Co. will have to balance and test. As is, he doesn't have to worry about the exploitability of Caravan Spot, because it only exists as a mod.

I'm not speaking for Ludeon; I'm speculating as to why, despite this having been suggested many, many times over the last half a dozen builds, it still hasn't been implemented; Given that history, I simply doubt that it ever will be.

[5thHorseman]

Because your suggestions might work, and they might not. I can see several ways that those idea will punish people who aren't trying to cheese the system, so that then becomes something else that Tynan and Co. will have to balance and test.

And is there a reason they don't have to balance and test it now, when a trader comes into town, goes into some stupid spot, takes minor damage and drops my rating by 40 with the entire faction?

If I tell them where to go, and they go there, and they get hurt it SHOULD BE my fault. If they do whatever they want and get hurt and I get punished for it (which isn't theorycrafting it happened to me) why shouldn't I want it to be changed?

[DariusWolfe]

While there are a lot of folks who think that needs to be fixed (I'm one of them) it's not directly exploitable, since the player doesn't get to pick; The caravan shows up where it shows up. At this point, Tynan and Co. just need to tweak the code that determines where they show up, assuming they don't just decide that it's one of those challenges that you've got to deal with.

As is, the relatively easy ways to make reparations balance out the bullshit ways you can be penalized. It's not the balance I'd like, but it's a form of balance.

[dearmad]

Needs to be in game.

If you kill traders, there should be a sort of retaliation war declared on your ass. I mean something pretty fierce.

[Thunder Rahja]

The ability to dismiss trade caravans to make them leave the map would also be helpful. Trade caravans pick strange places to stop at and often track dirt and animal filth into otherwise clean rooms as they pace in and out. Animals get hungry (alphabeavers!) and eat crops and stored food if they stay too long, and being able to end their stay when I'm done with them would be a nice option.

[DariusWolfe]

The ability to dismiss trade caravans to make them leave the map would also be helpful. Trade caravans pick strange places to stop at and often track dirt and animal filth into otherwise clean rooms as they pace in and out. Animals get hungry (alphabeavers!) and eat crops and stored food if they stay too long, and being able to end their stay when I'm done with them would be a nice option.

This I can get entirely on-board with as a Vanilla feature. Luckily the B18 mod that does this works for 1.0, but I can't see any downsides to this, and have used it to protect caravans in the past; but mostly to get them out of my space when I know I'm done trading with them.

[mndfreeze]

I really don't see how the trader spot idea can be abused any more than without these days.  Most of the issues from back in the day were fixed (like trapping them in) and they already run all over your base and generally don't care about your defenses and will stop there.  You can just as easily kill them as it is now vs having a spot to place, and the benefits far outweigh the cheat/balance issues.

In much older versions it was definitely an issue for a while, but I really think most of those issues and reasons people did it have been addressed, at least enough to outweigh the few small abuse cases.

[Rulin]

Yes pls!

Also as a sidenote, one of the newest unstable releases changed traps, so they will only trigger on enemies and wild animals.

In case people attack trade caravans, just send a big retaliation raid.

I would love to build a house for them similar to the hospitality mod.

Always looks so messy how the trade caravan people move around. Just take a seat and drink some homebrewed beer!