1.0 changing the game too much?

[Tynan]

What about buffing defense through preparation rather than simply buffing player pawns (which feels a bit cheaty). An option to 'dig in' or 'hunker down' whilst drafted that would take time to trigger but then impart a state of increased defense/aim/maybe range could provide a similar effect without imparting superhuman abilities to the player! It would reward good defensive positioning and planning but in a way that could be balanced vs offensive strategies (which the player is not forced to take part in to survive)?

Remember you're not always defending. It should also be viable to win caravan fights, quest fights, enemy town fights.

[Firestonezz]

My current colony - tribal start Casssandra extreme. I've been abusing door peeking against raiders. My defense is literally just 4 11x11 rooms on 4 corners of my rectangular base. Each of these rooms alternates door-wall-door-wall, with a layer of sandbags in front.

Step 1: Place colonists at the doors to shoot once using weapons with low charge time.
Step 2: Immediately back off so the door shuts - most raiders won't be able to fire back.
Step 3: Wait for the raiders' status to go from "Searching for targets" to "Attacking random door/wall."
Step 4: Repeat Steps 1-3.

Step 3 is what completely breaks the AI. Normally, if you go to door peek when their status is still "Searching for targets," they will charge their ranged attack the moment your colonists re-open the door. This means they will start attacking before your colonists do. However, by waiting until they "reset" and try to attack a structure, you can get shots off without them being able to fire back because they don't change back to "firing" status until they get hit. In addition, enemies will try to run to cover first before shooting, giving you even more time to hide.

Mechs become trivial with this strategy due to their weapon's long charge time. I've also literally just 5v18ed a pirate raid with no injuries by having 4 colonists fight and 1 run around to repair walls/doors. Surely door peeking needs to be nerfed (it was even more broken in B18).

The only threat so far has come from a mechanoid drop - 1 colonist and a handful of huskies died.

Now that's a quality report right there. Step-by-step, clear, awesome.

I think the first thought here is to make the raiders smarter in a human-like way so that they're not trivially defeated by such tactics. E.g. if it was a human controlling them, he'd not have them leave the door and attack the wall over and over, he'd probably have them attack the door specifically, right?

I'd love to see a video of this in action BTW. I've seen it before but not in the 1.0 build.

Or do players like this strategy? Should it be left alone? After all, consider the topic of this thread... All opinions welcome.

I think that would be a great AI improvement. Even manhunting animals have the sense to attack the doors! But raiders just lose interest and split apart to attack random structures. A group of raiders focus-firing a door to out-DPS the repair speed would be a solid way to counter this cheese.

Keep it or nerf it - I wouldn't really mind either way as I usually don't use this strategy in my other playthroughs due to its cheesiness and the heavy amount of repetitive micromanagement. It is definitely overpowered though.

[East]

I'd love to see a video of this in action BTW. I've seen it before but not in the 1.0 build.

I can make this. But the result is that if everything is blocked and only the armor is the result of fighting, I will not like it. I want to see that tactical judgments and thoughts in battle dominate the battle. Like chess. Of course, armor, weapons, terrain, buildings, and shooters should be blended together. But then the game can get harder. Are you okay?  I do not know. Once I believe in your balance skills.

Go to video making.

[Tynan]

I want to see that tactical judgments and thoughts in battle dominate the battle. Like chess. Of course, armor, weapons, terrain, buildings, and shooters should be blended together.

I agree, this is the goal.

[bbqftw]

I am not sure there is any easy solution.

Even exchanging fire in honorable combat at 75% cover bonus is a sure ticket to loss given the sheer enemy numbers you face. You will always need to be able to asymmetrically deal with the enemy or accept getting storytold.

And know that there are always unintended consequences to the most well-intended changes.

You might also ask whether you want to pursue a never-ending treadmill of balance and mechanic fixes when certain aspects of the game (see: caravans) remain largely user-unfriendly.

[Jibbles]

Do you not want unpredictable Ai? Or are there drawbacks such as performance or complications? Unpredictable as in sometimes they'll attack the door, other times they attack structures etc when players peek like this. As of now, they attack a random structure which is spicing things up.. 

If you must stick to one, then I would definitely not have them attack the door, (Maybe a chance for them to shoot the door down might work? Might be too much to handle for some players). Such an easy way to lure them in if we are talking about a gunner coming to bash down a door.

What about watching for targets and keeping the gun loaded for a longer amount of time? (Randomize that time if it's not too much work) While that is happening several other raiders are more likely around the base destroying things. So it'll be tough to not deal with other raiders while waiting to peek for the next shot. I see flaws with this as well.

The above example is using low charge time weapons..
- So which weapons were you using?
- What's your battle like when raiders are using the same weapons?
- How long does it usually take you finish off that raid? This may not be efficient enough to even worry about as this is quite a tedious thing to do. However I'm curious.

[lancar]

Alternatively, if there's more than one pawn being door cheesed at once like this, have 1 enemy stay and cover the door while the rest switches to other attacks as normal.

This way, you can lessen the impact of the tactic while still having it possible to do as you can still fight that 1 guard with multiple door-peekers at once. It also gives you more time to react as you won't be pushed into a corner as fast as you would've been if they'd just been bashing the door relentlessly.

[Tynan]

It's worth asking what you'd do as a player if you were raiding a faction base and the defenders started doing this.

[Akyla]

I agree about "buff fighting with your pawns" - this is a major goal. But it's hard to say how to do that. I'm very open to suggestions here. There are challenges with this given that your pawns play by the same rules as enemy pawns; it's hard to say how to buff one side but not the other.

In a realistic colony, the security of the colony would come from a well equipped, well trained security team.
Strong stationary security cannot be depended upon fully, as it can be bypassed or deactivated by a cunning opponent.
Getting good equipment is already possible, so perhaps a method of training could be added?

In addition, someone who is well trained would not just know how to shoot, but more importantly, how to avoid getting shot.
At the moment, every pawn is equally easy to hit. Perhaps this should be changed.

Since raiders are opportunistic by nature, it is unlikely they are anywhere near as well equipped or trained, compensating with numbers.
Perhaps the leader of the raid could be the exception to this and be better trained and equipped.

Hostile non-raider towns could have well equipped teams, so these might bring better trained and equipped pawns.
However, since such pawns would be important for the security of the town, they should be hesitant to risk them.

EDIT:
I just realized that a separate "cover use" stat or skill would also help with the door-cheese tactic.
A pawn with a high cover use would be very good at using the cover of the door, thus making the cheese tactic unnecessary.
The raiders would need to go around him, or approach from the side and engage in melee to deal with the pawn.

In addition, a separate "cover use" stat or skill would also make melee / ranged balance more interesting.
Currently a melee pawn will win against a ranged pawn, something which doesn't sit well with me.
With a separate "cover use" stat this would only work if the melee pawn is effective at making use of cover, otherwise he'd get shot. For this to work, it should also provide a cover bonus in open terrain (by walking zig-zag, minimizing profile to shooter)
The "cover use" stat would not apply to melee, so engaging an entrenched ranged pawn in melee would still be an effective tactic against this pawn.

[5thHorseman]

It's worth asking what you'd do as a player if you were raiding a faction base and the defenders started doing this.

I would do what I tend to always do, go to the nearest guy and kill him from as far away as possible with as many people as I possibly can.

If "as far away as possible" is "through that door he's hiding behind" the so be it. That door comes down.

[zizard]

Or do players like this strategy? Should it be left alone? After all, consider the topic of this thread... All opinions welcome.

It's hard to be forthright with tactics. They take a lot of experimentation and theory craft to figure out, and may get nerfed in ways that make the game worse. For example there is still a problem with pawns not moving to the places that they are shown to be ordered. The response was "don't compare B18 and U1". I think it would be better if cheese was addressed with AI improvements rather than nerfs. Some, such as raiders firing at doors being used for peeking, were suggested in the "unstable" thread. However, as you said in that thread, AI changes are difficult. There were some attempts at changing door HP, but after that, door peeking received no further attention.

There is a stated goal of pushing the game towards "storytelling" and making extreme a mode with enforced RNG losses, furthermore calling reloading a "terrible way to play".  This gives the impression that any strategies handed over will be summarily destroyed. I think this is understandably unattractive. This occurred with the Ancient Danger raiding start of NB, which was really interesting and almost a "roguelike" experience, and has now turned into life or death by RNG, which is not interesting at all. I can't speak for all strong players, but among the ones I talk to, there is a general view that stamping out these rare strategies takes time that would be better spent adding more content, to combat and other areas. That is, please give us more ways to show skill, rather than less. (And make enemies less cheesy too. After the Nth mech drop or bolt rifle kiting of centipede for an hour I'm ready to slit my wrists).

Just to give an idea, I could probably win a 3v30 pirate raid with nothing but the starting crashlanded weapons and pawns with practically no effort and without the raiders having a chance of making a single attack, and this does not involve some elaborate giant base or 100 traps.

It's worth asking what you'd do as a player if you were raiding a faction base and the defenders started doing this.

Shoot the door down. Would only take a couple of volleys for anything but a plasteel door. Really just shooting at the base until the defenders have to come out and trade shots. Even if I lose, under the rules of enemy raids, it's a success as long as I give a permanent injury. If I can't shoot structures, assign 1-2 close range (but not melee) weapons users to stand directly outside every door, and start destroying things.

[spidermonk]

I think the first thought here is to make the raiders smarter in a human-like way so that they're not trivially defeated by such tactics.

It will help if the raiders with fast enough weapons shoot instantly: as soon as they see a colonist and can make a shot, and only seek for a cover after that.

It also seems that it takes a lot of time for raiders to switch from "crushing stuff" mode to "firing back" mode.

[Tynan]

For example there is still a problem with pawns not moving to the places that they are shown to be ordered. The response was "don't compare B18 and U1".

Um, who is that response from? Not me, for sure. Pawn movement bug should've been fixed this week, if it isn't please report what's going wrong!

There is a stated goal of pushing the game towards "storytelling" and making extreme a mode with enforced RNG losses, furthermore calling reloading a "terrible way to play".  This gives the impression that any strategies handed over will be summarily destroyed.

Considering the discussion so far, "any strategies handed over will be summarily destroyed" seems an obviously incorrect supposition. Since, after all, I specifically talked about the choice of doing or not doing this. That is what we are talking about.

If something is bothering you, the door for feedback is open, just say what you want to see happen. There's no sense in just assuming I'm doing some nefarious or stupid thing. It's better to just talk to me rather than silently assume the worst, take an adversarial approach and start actively manipulating and hiding information.

This discussion around degenerate strategies doesn't relate to reloading at all. Reloading isn't a strategy.

Just to give an idea, I could probably win a 3v30 pirate raid with nothing but the starting crashlanded weapons and pawns with practically no effort and without the raiders having a chance of making a single attack, and this does not involve some elaborate giant base or 100 traps.

How? Door peeking, or something else?

[Lightzy]

Door peeking is what I used to do against roving gangs of mad animals. It was fun.

But ultimately I think the AI should be taught to focus fire doors until destroyed, disregarding anything else until this is accomplished.

[East]

1. https://youtu.be/8l19jpOb1gk
This is the most basic battle. It is a fight of 500 point pirates and three colonists.
Get a high evasion rate for ranged attacks with sandbags.
The melee enemy flees to the door and escapes when approaching. Then go to the other door.
The basis of the strategy is to disperse the enemy and win the favorable building terrain and route.
I do not get hurt in the video, but I was just lucky and I usually get hurt. But dangerous pawns are not difficult to fall back. This is because the lines of enemy and friend are clear.

2. https://youtu.be/59VHetWNMpY
It is an exploit that uses the door closing late.
This is open for hours during the shooting and is closed to cooldown.
In other words, safety is guaranteed during cooldown and warmup times.
You can also use emp with this method.
i used drafts here to make sure the abuse was clear. Normally, the melee character opens the door and immediately exits.
The more colonists behind the door, the more powerful this method is.
Actually this is for demonstration and I do not use it. If you do not use this method, you can easily win with enough cover.

3.https://youtu.be/HQnhoxmMGEY
It is a form of killzone.
We attack while the enemy attacks the stool.
Since it strikes a small stool, it takes a cooldown and the enemy does not immediately counterattack.
When the enemy prepares to attack, we hide behind the door.
There are no objects in Killzone that can be covered.
You can see the enemies, as others have said, go back to find the cover.
When the enemy is in cover, wait for a while. If the enemy is out of cover, attack.

4.https://youtu.be/rZgnn7QBzyo
It is kitting. We use weapons superior to enemy range. It is usually used against melee enemies or centipede.
Especially useful when the centipede comes out early. In classic scenarios, you can deal with centipede with bolt action rifles. Other assault rifles and sniper rifles are also available.

5.https://youtu.be/ECtbGpNhlhM
It is a strategy using moltv. The enemies of the siege attack pop out when nearby fire is on. I attack those enemies.
Usually a small base is built and placed in a location that is not subject to enemy direct attack. Normally, it burns behind a nearby mountain or wall and draws the enemy.
In the video, the enemy did not have a long range weapon, so i just built it.
Incendiary launcher makes it even easier.
It is also important to pull out, but a small base is really important. It is good to build sand bags. Steel is built quickly and strong, so it is best to take steel. Some of the missing parts are replenished with nearby trees.
Fighting without a base(=good cover) is like pray to luck.
It is also important to select the location where the base can retreat during enemy assault.

6.https://youtu.be/1n_n2O5H2Hc
sapper can be treated as killzone by removing all diggers.
So I make many doors and shoot the digger. The digger is at the front and is easily removable. The problem is more than two people or a strong digger like power armor, shield belt. In this case, take it as a relic. Many doors to digger are a lot of firepower.

7.https://youtu.be/L_0WlNx8D4o
When you make a room with three spaces apart from the ship, the mechanoid breaks the wall and charges it to the base. The mechanoid no longer keeps the ship. Actually this is an exploit. If you can make it to the base, you can easily remove it with a little killzone.

add. https://youtu.be/jQyFR-wdpnA
This is just ... addition. It is my hope. Changing a zone is very important when fighting enemies.
  This is a feature in animaltab. Shift Press to switch animal areas at once.
  Vanilla has a home area and restrict area only.
  But I do not use the home area. It is used only for repair and cleaning. If you change your taste, you will not be able to repair it.
  I would really like to be able to change other areas at once.
  Of course, not only in the animal area, also in the colonist's restrict. The colonist's restrict is the key.
  I use zone changes inside the base when enemies attack. And push the dogs into the safety area. (Where the safe area is inside the base except the drug room)
It's a must for vanilla!