Is killbox still a thing in 1.0?

[eugeneb]

Oh cool, I am super excited to try the new version now. Haven't used traps before (other than explosives) because they used to be weak and also have really been looking towards some combat improvements for a long while now because it has been very predictable and unchallenging in previous versions. It did become more interesting in the past once I started consciously avoiding killboxes. My bases became more intricate with multiple layers and ways to get entire complex into lockdown to fall back to next layer. Sieges and sappers were boring and very easy in the past. I did enjoy droppods though. Still remember the dam mechanoids drop that instead of chasing my colonists who rushed to get armor, started ruining my fancy statues, legendary thumbo chairs, etc. That was a pretty memorable nooooooo moment.

[Oblitus]

Glad to say Oblitus' information is false. The traps are cheaper, hit more consistently, and do much, much more damage against all targets, and can be reinstalled, with the downside that they're used once. Of course armor does have an effect.

We are still tuning them of course, so if you ever actually use some in game and have some feedback based on that please post it!

So far, from streamers and actual play reports, people seem to find them useful.

Useful, yes, but still it's a nerf. They are okay in forest biomes, when you have more wood than you can ever use, but when resources are more scarce reusability easily beats all damage buffs. It takes ≈2 stone traps to take down pirate and ≈3 stone traps to take down a scyther, and centipede is as well as immune to them - at least they can come through corridor with 11 of them 15 times out of 15. And this is a ton of stone.

[Tynan]

Oh cool, I am super excited to try the new version now. Haven't used traps before (other than explosives) because they used to be weak and also have really been looking towards some combat improvements for a long while now because it has been very predictable and unchallenging in previous versions. It did become more interesting in the past once I started consciously avoiding killboxes. My bases became more intricate with multiple layers and ways to get entire complex into lockdown to fall back to next layer. Sieges and sappers were boring and very easy in the past. I did enjoy droppods though. Still remember the dam mechanoids drop that instead of chasing my colonists who rushed to get armor, started ruining my fancy statues, legendary thumbo chairs, etc. That was a pretty memorable nooooooo moment.

Awesome. IEDs were buffed somewhat too since nobody used them, give those a try, I'd love to hear how it works out.

[zizard]

Awesome. IEDs were buffed somewhat too since nobody used them, give those a try, I'd love to hear how it works out.

I like how IEDs are like fine meals and traps are like simple meals.

[Tynan]

So what you're saying is I should add a lavish trap.

[Oblitus]

Awesome. IEDs were buffed somewhat too since nobody used them, give those a try, I'd love to hear how it works out.

I like how IEDs are like fine meals and traps are like simple meals.

Wait, but fine meals are more expensive than simple meals, and IEDs are cheaper than deadfalls (explosive IED - 40 silver stuff cost, wooden deadfall - 50 silver stuff cost, steel deadfall - 76 silver stuff cost).

So what you're saying is I should add a lavish trap.

Can I get my nutrient paste trap please?

[zizard]

Awesome. IEDs were buffed somewhat too since nobody used them, give those a try, I'd love to hear how it works out.

I like how IEDs are like fine meals and traps are like simple meals.

Wait, but fine meals are more expensive than simple meals, and IEDs are cheaper than deadfalls (explosive IED - 40 silver stuff cost, wooden deadfall - 50 silver stuff cost, steel deadfall - 76 silver stuff cost).

SHHHHHH YOU WILL GET US NERFED

;.; tynan went silent that means he's nerfing it right now ;.;

[Oblitus]

Out of curiosity - tests of granite deadfalls in 0.18. 30 tests each.

Pirates: ≈3 traps per pirate. Quite large spread, from 1 to 5, but overall in each set of 10 spread is 27-33.
Scythers: ≈2.6 traps per scyther.
Centipedes: My 15 trap setup was a bit too short, but was able to stop them 25 times of 30.

Results: their performance against pirates from B18 and current 1.0 is close. Sure, current 1.0 is a bit more consistent, with less chance to one-shot and less chance to deal little to no damage, but generally it is similair. Against scythers though traps are notably worse now. What we have as dry net? One use, half cost, forced spacing, and metal traps are not really affordable anymore.

Steel trap in B18:
Pirates: ≈2.2 traps per pirate
Scythers: ≈2.3 traps per scyther
Centipedes: ≈7 traps per one (approximation, too lazy to actually count)

[Tynan]

IED is higher tech and has different use cases (e.g. it chain reacts so packing them together works differently), is not all about theoretical silver value. Though of course I'm interested in how these can actually be used in play, just less interested in theorizing.

[Oblitus]

Explosive IEDs test (again 30 pawns each test):

Pirates:
B18: 1.8 per pirate. Two pawns on go-juice were too fast for them and escaped.
1.0: 2 per pirate.

Scythers:
B18: 2.8 per scyther. Worse than deadfalls, actually.
1.0: 3.3 per scyther. ≈10% chance to survive 5 IEDs.

Centipedes:
B18: IDK. A corridor with 6 IEDs only enough to stop 1 out of 10 dealing 50-70% damage each other.
1.0: They just shrug it off, 30-50% damage each from a corridor with 5 IEDs.

Overall in 1.0 they are weaker for one target, but they have +1 radius. No more component cost would mean a lot in B18, components in 1.0 are also cheaper. Still, makes them more viable. And they really are more cost-efficient than deadfalls even without AoE.

[Nafensoriel]

So what you're saying is I should add a lavish trap.

If you add a carnivorous fern trap I will swear fealty to you and conquer Montreal in your name.

[eugeneb]

Awesome. IEDs were buffed somewhat too since nobody used them, give those a try, I'd love to hear how it works out.

Oh sweet, will give them a try. I am really surprised people haven't been using them. I've used them heavily: usually I'd create the field of chunks/slugs and leave natural pathways there that enemies would follow. At that end of pathway, where 100% chunk/slug field starts, there would be a mine. This would ensures that they trigger them and also since chunk/slugs will slow them down, they usually wouldn't escape explosion (which will either down them or cripple them enough to be a non-threat).
Although I am not a power player and I didn't run a detailed cost–benefit analysis on them, so may be people didn't use them due to component cost or something like that.

[Klomster]

Non resettable traps will be a downer since it will take time to recreate the traps.

Time that could have been spent elsewhere, perhaps making a better house or something.

[Th3Eagle85]

Glad to say Oblitus' information is false. The traps are cheaper, hit more consistently, and do much, much more damage against all targets, and can be reinstalled, with the downside that they're used once. Of course armor does have an effect.

We are still tuning them of course, so if you ever actually use some in game and have some feedback based on that please post it!

So far, from streamers and actual play reports, people seem to find them useful.

Switched materials (maybe I was using steel to much and should rethink where I am using it for) and with the lower material costs it does not feel like a nerf. The higher damage and always hit is quite an improvement. I still build some "minefields"an they work weakening down the raids, but not to much.

[MoronicCinamun]

The cost of the spike traps still feels pretty prohibitive. It's not just the silver equivilant, once you have the tech to produce them IEDs (at least HE and Incendiaries) are easy to make because the chemfuel is a very renewable resource: I only have 2 boomalopes and occasionally refine some corn when I need a quick surplus, if I had an infinite chem reactor I would be golden.

I like an idea that someone suggested about the spikes, if instead of rebuilding the whole trap you just replace a spring, costing a small amount of steel (maybe that should mean that all of them also require some steel, maybe something like 5 or 10 steel + the Stuff cost, maybe reduce the stuff cost?).

At the very least though the fact you can uninstall/install them like furniture is a massive improvement, if you do find your traps are uselessly placed it's no problem, just move it!