Getting a handle on meat

[Zombull]

Raising livestock is far inferior as a source of food to hunting or manhunter packs. Perhaps the real problem is hunting and manhunter meat needs to be revisited. Tynan suggested discussing it in another thread and I didn't see one already created, so...

My #1 suggestion: Taint manhunter meat such that it has a higher chance of causing a diseases. Think "Mad Cow". After all, something made those animals go mad, right?

Suggestion #2: Make hunting more authentic. Real hunters don't have omniscient knowledge of the species and location every animal within a several mile radius. Real hunting takes patience and skill and stealth and often results in failure. Don't show wild animals on the map. Change the Wildlife tab to a Hunting tab and make it a bill system in which the player designates what animals to hunt for and the hunter goes out hunting, anywhere on the map or in designated zones. They have a chance, determined by biome and skills and terrain and human activity in the area, to sight prey and attempt to kill it.

These changes would make it much more worthwhile to raise animals for food and would create an opportunity to introduce another meat source woefully missing from the game: Fishing.

[Aerial]

I think a couple of suggestions from the other thread are far simpler to implement and would cause far less change to the existing Rimworld mechanics:

1)  Either let livestock animals produce more meat and leather per animal than wild/hunted animals or significantly reduce the number of wild animals on the map.  Right now, hunting provides too much meat, period.  Meat should be a relatively scarce resource unless animals are raised for slaughter.
2)  Let number of wounds or type of trauma affect amount of meat and leather from butchering.  If a manhunter gets shredded by a turret or IED, it provides little meat and no usable leather.
3)  If 1) is implemented, milk and eggs become valuable as a renewable "meat" resource.  Alternately, milk/eggs/insect jelly required for lavish meals could be a way to make raising animals more appealing.

[spidermonk]

I just want to say that hunting is ridiculously lucrative. Mowing down a pack of 6 muffalos gives you something like 1600 silver if you sell that meat and leather. It takes very little effort and almost no risk to do that, just draft 4-6 colonists with decent weapons. If the pack aggroes, micro them until all of the muffalos are dead.

No need to do something to grow wealth, if nearest town have something you want to buy, just kill some animals on your map and buy it. Need some bionics? Kill 6 muffalos. Need an archotech eye? kill 14 muffalos or equivalent.

I modded my games to have amount of animals on Temperate Forest biome be slightly less than tundra has on vanilla, otherwise it feels too unbalanced. I don't want to play on other biomes because I like variety of seasons in Temperate Forest.

[Greep]

Well, keep in mind he also said it's not like he's going to make large changes here this late in the game.
So any changes are probably going to be in mod form, and usually mods just buff things rather than seeking a good balance

[fritzgryphon]

Even just dropping the spawn rate would make it less exploity.  If you kill all the wildlife on the map, it shouldn't just come back after 2 days.

Counter this with allowing wildlife to breed.  The player is then incentivised to not over-hunt.

[Nynzal]

Maps are simply too small to really simulate wildlife lifecycles; they take at least one year for bigger animals.
Changes like smaller groups and less frequent would be a lot easier.
Also, reducing meat a bit by damage taken sounds nice, but dont overdo it here. A skilled hunter should be able to get a shot to the heart/head, minimizing meat loss.

The best idea is to require animal products like milk (cheese?) and eggs for lavish meals. Better food comes from variety and good ingredients, instead of just taking more of the same.

Also a rework for grazing area might be cool: Add grass seeds (besides hay, that can be stored for winter) so you can actually seed a meadow: takes a lot more space but requires less work.

[Zombull]

Well, keep in mind he also said it's not like he's going to make large changes here this late in the game.
So any changes are probably going to be in mod form, and usually mods just buff things rather than seeking a good balance

I took his comment to mean "for this release". It's too late for A19 to have (another) huge, destabilizing change introduced.

[Zombull]

I still think the core problem with hunting (manhunter packs are a separate issue) is that hunting is pretty much a guaranteed food source. It shouldn't be. You, the player, see a wild animal on the map and mark it to be hunted. How does that translate into in-world logic? The colonists have some sort of radio tracker on it? So they go out there to where there are a dozen deer standing around and shoot at it. Meanwhile, the deer just keep loitering around waiting for their turn.

The problem with meat supply is fundamental to the hunting mechanic, so the hunting mechanic needs a fundamental redesign to fix it.

[Snafu_RW]

Maps are simply too small to really simulate wildlife lifecycles; they take at least one year for bigger animals.
Changes like smaller groups and less frequent would be a lot easier.

Hmm.. depends upon map size if you think about it

Also, reducing meat a bit by damage taken sounds nice, but dont overdo it here. A skilled hunter should be able to get a shot to the heart/head, minimizing meat loss.

Already done with 'missing body parts' in vanilla: this reduces both meat & hide yield from the corpse.. possibly encouraging your skilled marksmen/hunters to take up more accurate weps?

The best idea is to require animal products like milk (cheese?) and eggs for lavish meals.

IIRC 'animal products' can already be used instead of raw meat in any meals, altho raw meat is generally preferred

Also a rework for grazing area might be cool: Add grass seeds (besides hay, that can be stored for winter) so you can actually seed a meadow: takes a lot more space but requires less work.

IIRC DEVs are working on natural reseeding of a map; it's somewhat improved already but may be improved further in future updates. Obviously your herd of multi-muffalo will graze natural grass to extinction wiithin a small map size or allowed area, but that's your own fault

[5thHorseman]

The best idea is to require animal products like milk (cheese?) and eggs for lavish meals.

IIRC 'animal products' can already be used instead of raw meat in any meals, altho raw meat is generally preferred

That is true. They are able to be used. But they are not REQUIRED.

I did not propose this but I like it enough to explain my personal take on it:

Simple Meals require 10 food units (or whatever they're called) in any combination.
Fine Meals require 10 food units, but at least 5 of them must be non-plant and at least 5 of them must be plant.
Lavish Meals currently require 20 food units split 10/10 like Fine meals are split 5/5.
Lavish Meals in this new proposal would require - say - 15 food units split 5/5/5, plant, meat, and byproducts.

As it is I never make lavish meals anymore once I found that they take twice the ingredients (and I think also twice the time) and don't give anywhere near twice the benefit. I only use them with Insect meat to use it up because the Lavish buff is more than the Insect debuff.

[Nafensoriel]

What about going on this issue from a different direction? I hate to say the "realism" line but there is a reason we eat farmed food over wild food for many animals beyond simple volume or ease of access. Disease.

What if wild animals had a chance of causing a variety of infections to the colony that would be eliminated by raising them in the colony? Then the volume of wild meat would matter far less especially in the early days of the colony. It would also add a risk/reward factor to the narrative by forcing you to choose quick easy hunting meat or safe yet risky early farming.

You could even add an additional layer to the system for "manhunter" packs by making them extremely risky to consume. I mean something must be causing them to go mad right? Eating those free elephants might just infect your entire colony with mechanites.

[Studly Spud]

Just like to add my support for making farming stronger, but in an optional way.  For example, I'm quite happy with hunting being an acceptable reliable food source as you can still play the game without farming animals.  But I really like the idea of lavish meals requiring things that are only obtainable through farming animals (plus insect jelly).  Lavish meals are definitely not required for a colony so you're not forced into farming animals, but if you want to go down that route then it could be meaningful. 

As well as dairy/eggs/jelly, perhaps introduce Veal.  Becuase wild animals do not breed, so the only way to get veal for lavish meals is to breed farmed animals.  And this also adds a mechanic to stop population spiraling out of control. 

As a QoL for helping manage farmed animals, maybe move slaughter conditions to a bill on the butcher table as well as set designating animals.  For example, "slaughter all cows below 1yr of age".  "slaughter all muffalo if you have more than 4".  "slaughter all wounded animals".   Disallow bonded animals.

[Nynzal]

I guess I wasnt clear enough with my statements:

Also, reducing meat a bit by damage taken sounds nice, but dont overdo it here. A skilled hunter should be able to get a shot to the heart/head, minimizing meat loss.

Already done with 'missing body parts' in vanilla: this reduces both meat & hide yield from the corpse.. possibly encouraging your skilled marksmen/hunters to take up more accurate weps?

I was referring to the suggestion of lead or weapon damage reducing the yield. While hunting, damage to the animal does not reduce yield, the missing body part only comes into play if actual parts are missing.

The best idea is to require animal products like milk (cheese?) and eggs for lavish meals.

IIRC 'animal products' can already be used instead of raw meat in any meals, altho raw meat is generally preferred

Someone clarified that: animal products will not be considered meat anymore - at least when it comes to lavish meals.

Also a rework for grazing area might be cool: Add grass seeds (besides hay, that can be stored for winter) so you can actually seed a meadow: takes a lot more space but requires less work.

IIRC DEVs are working on natural reseeding of a map; it's somewhat improved already but may be improved further in future updates. Obviously your herd of multi-muffalo will graze natural grass to extinction wiithin a small map size or allowed area, but that's your own fault

[/quote]
Naturla grazing area yields less than a planned one, animals will not eat specific plants, therefore having a huge meadow with seeded grass is better. So if we are talking about actual animal herding the intention is not just designate an area where they can graze. I was suggesting an intermediate solution between haygrass and natural growing plants.
As an example today, if we are not talking about mass production, animals are on designated meadows for this purposed and during winter supplied with special grown food. They are not just released into the forest to go and find their own food - counterintuitive to the fact that herding spares the hunting part.

[Wanderer_joins]

I'd be for manhunter packs' meat to be tainted/ spoiled/ toxic or whatever. You would still get significant meat from hunting on temperate/ boreal forest, but it'd be harder on tundra/ ice sheet.

And if you're playing on ice sheet, you should be experienced enough to know manhunter packs are free meat.

[Keldo]

How about something like that :
Remove (or greatly reduce) the number of animals on the map.
To balance that, you can make some kind of "hunting" caravan who can look for animals on the world map and bring back some food home.