Gourmand seems unneccarily bad

Started by Davetlow, August 28, 2018, 11:59:46 PM

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AileTheAlien

#15
(edited; original message was rude)

Nutrient paste dispensers are an easy way to keep the colony stocked with food, since they give 66% more food than simple or fine meals, and even more compared to lavish meals, pemmican, or packaged survival meals. This should be able to help with gourmands.

bobucles

#16
Paste dispensers sound like an exploit. There's no way a gourmand would accept hot slime.

I think it'd help if the gourmand was less about having a stapled stomach and more about being picky over their food. Kind of like being the opposite of acetic. Maybe something like taking double mood penalties from bad food and +50% happiness from good food. That means if they eat ant or human meat, it's going to practically be a guaranteed break.

High food standards have a similar outcome as increasing their hunger rate but is far better within player control. You can't feed them cheap bulk junk and must instead invest more food into higher quality nutrition or they get mad.

Davetlow

#17
Quote from: AileTheAlien on August 31, 2018, 10:24:15 AM

In the mean time, I think you'd want to investigate how easy it is to deal with gourmands. Nutrient paste dispensers...
Are you always this ?  You're going to teach me how to make food.  I stopped reading, because I needed to return the favor.  Did you tell me how to make a corn silo?  Or that you can just roof corn fields because they produce so much the hauling can be unnecessarily time consuming?  I don' t know, you refused to read my post, so I didn't read yours either.

"
Quote from: AileTheAlien on August 30, 2018, 09:13:53 PM...
That's a penalty, but not enough to bar them from combat entirely.

You essentially agree with my whole point here, why be so preachy?  That's right because you kept refusing to read it so you could know everything.

Third_Of_Five

Quote from: bobucles on August 31, 2018, 10:39:29 AM
I think it'd help if the gourmand was less about having a stapled stomach and more about being picky over their food.

Yes! This. 100% this.

glob

I think its' current state is undesired behaviour and it will be fixed. I'd propose remove starving, make them eat 2x of normal, always eat the most expensive meal even if it is forbidden, except the Packaged survival one. Leave binges as they are. Leave bonus to cooking as it is. This would make this trait neutral or slightly bad in early game and leaning to good in late game.

5thHorseman

I don't know about ignoring forbidden, but I think the gourmand should get the fine bonus for lavish meals and no bonus for fine meals, and a mood hit for simple meals. And eating raw should destroy their mood. They should - instead of getting hungry 1500% faster or whatever it is*, just eat when they are even mildly peckish instead of actually hungry.

But they should have some bonus too. Something really irks me that I'm happy to see someone's psychotic but sad to find they're a gourmand.

*I know what it is.
Toolboxifier - Soil Clarifier
I never got how pawns in the game could have such insanely bad reactions to such mundane things.
Then I came to the forums.

Drewski

Quote from: bobucles on August 31, 2018, 10:39:29 AM
Paste dispensers sound like an exploit. There's no way a gourmand would accept hot slime.

I think you may be confusing a gourmand with a gourmet. Common mistake, but they're totally different. A gourmand is a polite term for a glutton; a gourmet is a polite term for a food snob.

That said, I've been able to manage the 50% hunger without too much trouble - no worse than a slothful starting pawn in terms of lost productivity - but the binges devastate me in the early game. I have a small sample size, but my gourmands seem to binge from wake up until they get sleepy every time, whereas the mental break happens when it happens and often ends in a few hours. About two binges into a game I'm in serious trouble.

Definitely never picking one unless I want an extra challenge.

5thHorseman

Quote from: Drewski on September 01, 2018, 06:59:03 AM
I think you may be confusing a gourmand with a gourmet. Common mistake, but they're totally different. A gourmand is a polite term for a glutton; a gourmet is a polite term for a food snob.

Wow. I know I was. And I consider myself a polite term for a word snob :D

I take back everything I said. And instead say they should rename it to Glutton :D
Toolboxifier - Soil Clarifier
I never got how pawns in the game could have such insanely bad reactions to such mundane things.
Then I came to the forums.

Davetlow

Yeah, because gourmand is like a pretentious word, and I agree, I would much prefer they eat twice or three times as much rather than pretending such a person would actually starve to death in a short amount of time.  During the early game you could just ban the door and they would be fine unless they went crazy, for instance, but it would always be a bit of a pain.  If he's part of the first squad and it's in harsh terrain he and probably everyone else needs to be able punch hunt, lol.

spidermonk

Quote from: bobucles on August 30, 2018, 03:23:11 PM
Quotejust means you need to grow or hunt more food earlier, and delay other things like making statues, or stone walls instead of wood, etc.
See! It's not so bad! Taking a single gourmand merely sets you back multiple tangible game objectives which may cost you days or weeks.

Wait a minute. That's actually pretty damn bad.
Your speed of development is irrelevant because raids scale with your wealth. You'll get that 20 ppl tribal raid half a year later, so what? And it's great that it's designed this way, because you don't need to be stressed and can chose your own pace of development. And it makes that NB runs with incapable pawns quite viable and a lot of fun.

Third_Of_Five

Quote from: spidermonk on September 04, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
Your speed of development is irrelevant because raids scale with your wealth. You'll get that 20 ppl tribal raid half a year later, so what? And it's great that it's designed this way, because you don't need to be stressed and can chose your own pace of development. And it makes that NB runs with incapable pawns quite viable and a lot of fun.

"So what"? You're literally lecturing someone about how they should not be mad about a direct hindrance to normal gameplay. Get over yourself.

spidermonk

Quote from: Third_Of_Five on September 04, 2018, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: spidermonk on September 04, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
Your speed of development is irrelevant because raids scale with your wealth. You'll get that 20 ppl tribal raid half a year later, so what? And it's great that it's designed this way, because you don't need to be stressed and can chose your own pace of development. And it makes that NB runs with incapable pawns quite viable and a lot of fun.

"So what"? You're literally lecturing someone about how they should not be mad about a direct hindrance to normal gameplay. Get over yourself.
Sorry about my tone, I should be more careful with words. I personally don't perceive slow development as a hindrance to normal gameplay. The story still develops, events happen. Slow development with lots of challenges and push backs is actually by far the most enjoyable way of playing this game for me. This is why I'm curious why people consider it such a problem.

Davetlow

Quote from: spidermonk on September 04, 2018, 05:47:54 PM
Quote from: Third_Of_Five on September 04, 2018, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: spidermonk on September 04, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
Your speed of development is irrelevant because raids scale with your wealth. You'll get that 20 ppl tribal raid half a year later, so what? And it's great that it's designed this way, because you don't need to be stressed and can chose your own pace of development. And it makes that NB runs with incapable pawns quite viable and a lot of fun.

"So what"? You're literally lecturing someone about how they should not be mad about a direct hindrance to normal gameplay. Get over yourself.
Sorry about my tone, I should be more careful with words. I personally don't perceive slow development as a hindrance to normal gameplay. The story still develops, events happen. Slow development with lots of challenges and push backs is actually by far the most enjoyable way of playing this game for me. This is why I'm curious why people consider it such a problem.
OP:
Me: Re: Gourmand seems unnecessarily bad 

Is it intentionally this bad?  I'd rather just feed him like twice or even three times as much and still have the binges than have him starving after a solid 8 in bed.

Thus folks were ranking how surprisingly bad gourmand was compared to other traits.  I play naked and alone and generally take all comers in, but sometimes they die.  If this hadn't been my first death to gourmand, first it probably wouldn't have happened, but also, I probably would have just loaded, so I thought I would tell the story, as I was puzzled this trait is as bad as it it.  But, it's fine if that's what they meant.  It's just...  you know it's not as bad defensive wise as nonviolent but it's pretty bad to have to babysit this guy's hunger.  Only my best bases have every had a fridge next to the killbox, that is a premium f feature.

Anastasia

Quote from: Davetlow on August 28, 2018, 11:59:46 PM
I picked up a gourmand.  He starved to death beating out a flashstorm fire, another pawn was at malnourished minor.  He died while she was cooking his food.  While I did note he got hungry faster as his mechanic, I did not foresee how difficult that would make him to use properly.  I think if he would just eat sooner than necessary and maybe pick up more food than necessary for .05 nutrition stuff it would be more sensible than being a fatty who gets malnourished without food and then passes out.  I just want to make sure this is what is actually intended by the trait.  Gourmand raiders are going to be going down on the way to the front door.  I mean the chicks overeat, or they used to, by eating a meal but only having room for a tiny bit.  And it's fine, I guess, how it is, but it's a lot more serious of a trait than it sounds in the description, though, again, the mechanic is described properly, I think.
i deifnetly dont think it's worse than pyro, pyro is probably the single worst one ever atleast for me since i tend to make large spread out villages out of wood in forests because i dont really liek min/maxing stuff and just do what feels natural or fun, which usually ends up getting me killed...anyway i feel like it should have some kind of benefit, like maybe they make better food(like it never/rarely gets poisoned) or they make food faster or both, and maybe instead of eating more they will get a mood debuff if they eat anything less than a fine meal or something
"Your ethics and philosophies mean nothing to me, all i ask is that you give me a solution that works."

Davetlow

Quote from: Anastasia on September 04, 2018, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: Davetlow on August 28, 2018, 11:59:46 PM
I picked up a gourmand.  He starved to death beating out a flashstorm fire, another pawn was at malnourished minor.  He died while she was cooking his food.  While I did note he got hungry faster as his mechanic, I did not foresee how difficult that would make him to use properly.  I think if he would just eat sooner than necessary and maybe pick up more food than necessary for .05 nutrition stuff it would be more sensible than being a fatty who gets malnourished without food and then passes out.  I just want to make sure this is what is actually intended by the trait.  Gourmand raiders are going to be going down on the way to the front door.  I mean the chicks overeat, or they used to, by eating a meal but only having room for a tiny bit.  And it's fine, I guess, how it is, but it's a lot more serious of a trait than it sounds in the description, though, again, the mechanic is described properly, I think.
i deifnetly dont think it's worse than pyro, pyro is probably the single worst one ever atleast for me since i tend to make large spread out villages out of wood in forests because i dont really liek min/maxing stuff and just do what feels natural or fun, which usually ends up getting me killed...anyway i feel like it should have some kind of benefit, like maybe they make better food(like it never/rarely gets poisoned) or they make food faster or both, and maybe instead of eating more they will get a mood debuff if they eat anything less than a fine meal or something

I just have someone walk around with the pyro and put out the fires and their brake rarely lasts very long.  It does occasionally cause a major problem during a stress situation.  Gourmands are certainly not the same dead weight as nonviolent or wimp, but it's bad and they're expensive, too.  The math is, btw, a gourmand goes 7.5 hours before hunger from full and the pawns you're used to do ~11.2 hrs.  A difference that doesn't matter, really, if they research or make food and that stuff is next to the fridge, but if they have to do anything it's seems unusually painful.  So then you gotta remember to feed this fat pawn before he goes out to fight a fire or stand at attention somewhere.  The pyro needs a babysitter.  For some reason I find this less annoying.