Nudist debuffs from jackets

[twoski]

I think nudist is a trait that needs rethinking. In biomes where you need to give people a parka to wear (or risk them getting hypothermia), it's basically a permanent mood debuff.

Nudist should only apply to pants and shirts, not jackets/hats/body armor. You shouldn't punish people for trying to keep their dumbass pawns from freezing to death because clothes make them grumpy.

Does anyone actually know a nudist in real life that is so staunchly against wearing clothes that they'd rather risk hypothermia in the middle of winter than wear a jacket?

[AileTheAlien]

I just execute nudist pawns in cold climates. Clearly, they are insane, and thus a danger to their fellow colonists.

[SYDWAD]

+1

[Limdood]

Does anyone actually know a nudist in real life that is so staunchly against wearing clothes that they'd rather risk hypothermia in the middle of winter than wear a jacket?

No, BUT i do know nudists in real life who feel constrained and tense while wearing clothes.  These people go to work just like you or me, they go shopping, run errands, but they feel anxious and uncomfortable the whole time.

When they get home, they strip down and enjoy freedom.

Unfortunately, I think your attempt to counter how the nudist trait works with realism has backfired, and it works almost exactly like it does in real life.  Real life nudists DISLIKE wearing clothes....they don't suicidally refuse.

I dislike shopping for food.  I get grumpy when i have to go out and do it.  I'm not going to "risk starving to death to avoid it"...its almost like my feelings on food shopping could be represented by a slight penalty to my overall mood whenever i'm stuck doing said activity I dislike.




That being said, I would love it if nudists could be set to wear clothing under certain conditions, like (assuming comfortable temp is 45-90F) wear clothes+jacket if temp drops below 40F.  Wear duster+cowboy hat if temp goes above 100F.  However I don't see a way to implement that considering the constantly fluctuating temperatures even within a single room, let alone temperature differences between rooms, hallways, and outdoors.

[twoski]

Well of course they would begrudgingly wear clothes (and be uncomfortable) - but the thing i'm arguing is that they would actually wear the clothes.

If i set one of my nudist pawns to the nudist clothing designation, they won't even attempt to wear a jacket in winter. This is the thing that needs changing. Even if a pawn is assigned to nudist, they should make an effort to keep their body temperature safe, first and foremost.

[5thHorseman]

If i set one of my nudist pawns to the nudist clothing designation, they won't even attempt to wear a jacket in winter. This is the thing that needs changing. Even if a pawn is assigned to nudist, they should make an effort to keep their body temperature safe, first and foremost.

So you want them to go against your express wishes and do what you specifically told them not to do? It's hard enough to get these guys to build a colony and now you want them to blatantly ignore my wishes by default.

EDIT

I like the idea of temperature-based clothing settings though I'm not sure how it'd actually work.

[twoski]

Basically it would just prioritize keeping them at a safe temp first and foremost. If that need can be met without them having clothes on, then they would take off their clothes.

Alternatively they'd just not get the debuff from coats since they are technically 'nude' underneath

[zgrssd]

Well of course they would begrudgingly wear clothes (and be uncomfortable) - but the thing i'm arguing is that they would actually wear the clothes.

If i set one of my nudist pawns to the nudist clothing designation, they won't even attempt to wear a jacket in winter. This is the thing that needs changing. Even if a pawn is assigned to nudist, they should make an effort to keep their body temperature safe, first and foremost.

Because you set him to nudist, wich locks out anything but Headwear. He literally can not wear the item he would need to wear.

If i set one of my nudist pawns to the nudist clothing designation, they won't even attempt to wear a jacket in winter. This is the thing that needs changing. Even if a pawn is assigned to nudist, they should make an effort to keep their body temperature safe, first and foremost.

So you want them to go against your express wishes and do what you specifically told them not to do? It's hard enough to get these guys to build a colony and now you want them to blatantly ignore my wishes by default.

EDIT

I like the idea of temperature-based clothing settings though I'm not sure how it'd actually work.

I agree that the clothing settings are less then ideal. I think there should be a bunch of "Optimize for setting X".
A soldier should optimize for Sharp and Blunt Armor. A worker for Isolation.

Maybe a list of can equip (if needs to) and should equip (if it does ot conflict with a need)? So they should not wear a Parka needlessly. But they can, if it is cold enough.

Personally I mostly ignore Nudist as a trait. It is a -3 debuff at worst. -3 and you do not have to worry about Temperature or that pawn been particulary vulnerable to being hurt.
Unless that person is also something like depressive or easy to break, that -3 is not worth my time.

[Limdood]

Basically it would just prioritize keeping them at a safe temp first and foremost. If that need can be met without them having clothes on, then they would take off their clothes.

Alternatively they'd just not get the debuff from coats since they are technically 'nude' underneath

The point we're trying to make with the "i don't know how that would work" is because, lets say your base is heated, but it's freezing outside...common example.  They start going out to haul, but they need clothes, so they divert to the storeroom to get clothes.  Best case scenario, the hauling job stays reserved and they go out to haul.  Now they're back in the base so they take clothes off...then go out to haul and wear them again...

That's BEST CASE and it would add an insane amount of time to most tasks.

Now make it more difficult: If i'm pathing through cold area to another heated area....like in bases with heated rooms but unheated hallways, does my character clothe for the walk?  if so, do they strip at the destination?  if so, where do they put those clothes?  won't that result in clothes that are eventually all in one heated area that the pawn now has to unsafely walk to?  If they don't clothe for the walk, then what if they're pathing mostway across the map in -20F weather?

And even worse....what if a cold snap drops the outside temp so much that the indoor temp drops and starts flip flopping between 44F and 46F?  Do they constantly put clothes on and off?  do they wait a set amount of time before they swap?  If so, do they interrupt what they're doing when that time limit hits?

There's a reason they don't "disobey" your clothing assignments....because almost ANY situational rules you come up with have dozens of unintended consequences.  Currently, them freezing to death has an obvious reason....YOU told them to wear nothing in the clothing options.  If you set a bunch of rules that you don't make super clear, with crazy conditions, then suddenly that pawn might die, and you don't know why he didn't put on clothes...i mean, he did on all those OTHER occasions, why was this one different?  And if you can't figure out why something happened, you can't adjust, and that makes the game frustrating, and frustration makes people quit.

[twoski]

Easiest thing i can think of is just making hats and jackets not apply to nudity.

Think of it like those flashers that go around with a trenchcoat on, showing random people their genitals and running away

[Limdood]

Easiest thing i can think of is just making hats and jackets not apply to nudity.

Think of it like those flashers that go around with a trenchcoat on, showing random people their genitals and running away

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

[zgrssd]

Easiest thing i can think of is just making hats and jackets not apply to nudity.

Think of it like those flashers that go around with a trenchcoat on, showing random people their genitals and running away

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

Not if we ignored it only for items that use the "shell" layer. With still enforcing it if the "middle" and "on skin" layers are affected.
That would allow most effective thermal protection clothing (duster and parka, basically). While still locking out any armor (those always seem to include middle, propably to lock out against one another).

[Limdood]

Easiest thing i can think of is just making hats and jackets not apply to nudity.

Think of it like those flashers that go around with a trenchcoat on, showing random people their genitals and running away

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

Not if we ignored it only for items that use the "shell" layer. With still enforcing it if the "middle" and "on skin" layers are affected.
That would allow most effective thermal protection clothing (duster and parka, basically). While still locking out any armor (those always seem to include middle, propably to lock out against one another).

my point being that gameplay wise, nudist is a tradeoff trait....It possesses one of the most powerful mood boosts in the game, BUT to get it, you need to risk no armor and terrible thermal tolerances.  the buff is 1.6x as powerful as sanguine, and the drawback is 1/3rd the strength of depressive.  Getting a 20 mood boost while mitigating the protection penalty and effectively ignoring the temperature penalty makes no sense, from a gameplay standpoint.

From a flavor standpoint....they're nudists.  They want to walk around without anything constraining their body, touching their skin.  They're not flashers, they're not doing this for some cheap thrill gained by shocking others.  This is evident from the flavor text of the nudist mood penalty and boost.

Hence my comment of:

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

Its a good/bad trait....if you can deal with the drawbacks, you get an amazing buff.  If you can't, you get a minor penalty, significantly less than even taking a pessimist pawn.  That's the obvious and clear design direction of the trait.

[zgrssd]

Easiest thing i can think of is just making hats and jackets not apply to nudity.

Think of it like those flashers that go around with a trenchcoat on, showing random people their genitals and running away

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

Not if we ignored it only for items that use the "shell" layer. With still enforcing it if the "middle" and "on skin" layers are affected.
That would allow most effective thermal protection clothing (duster and parka, basically). While still locking out any armor (those always seem to include middle, propably to lock out against one another).

my point being that gameplay wise, nudist is a tradeoff trait....It possesses one of the most powerful mood boosts in the game, BUT to get it, you need to risk no armor and terrible thermal tolerances.  the buff is 1.6x as powerful as sanguine, and the drawback is 1/3rd the strength of depressive.  Getting a 20 mood boost while mitigating the protection penalty and effectively ignoring the temperature penalty makes no sense, from a gameplay standpoint.

From a flavor standpoint....they're nudists.  They want to walk around without anything constraining their body, touching their skin.  They're not flashers, they're not doing this for some cheap thrill gained by shocking others.  This is evident from the flavor text of the nudist mood penalty and boost.

Hence my comment of:

kinda removes the whole point and gameplay effect of the trait if they can walk around with jackets on doesn't it?

Its a good/bad trait....if you can deal with the drawbacks, you get an amazing buff.  If you can't, you get a minor penalty, significantly less than even taking a pessimist pawn.  That's the obvious and clear design direction of the trait.

Sorry for the late reply.

I had the same missunderstanding as you originally. The issues is not that they need to be fully naked for the full bonus. Or even that they get a small penalties if fully clothed.

The issue is the micro-management work of getting that bonus/not getting that penalty. You need to change a nudists preferency/force wear something the moment you got a cold snap or winter sets in. And then you need to remember to actually clear it too after the extreme weather ends.
For me Nudist is pretty much a dead pick: I always order full clothing for that miniscule -3, seeing it as a very minor negative trait. The amount of work I need to invest to get the bonus is not remotely worth the +5 or so I get from it. And it is actually the complexity of using said trait that prevents it from having stronger positive/negative effects.

If you excldue stuff on the shell layer only:
- it Allow Parkas and Dusters - and only parkas and dusters
- Parkas and Dusters do not provide large armor
- all armors use the middle layer. So they would still be as reliably locked out