Caribou Revenge is still ridiculous

[B@R5uk]

I think it's matter of preferences. I prefer keeping my people happy, so -4 mood debuff against +5 mood buff for me is easy choice. But above anything else I prefer keeping my people fed and alive, so when it's food shortage it's time for paste. And I prefer my wardens not to waste time hauling food for prisoners, so prison gets its dedicated dispenser too.

[zizard]

Hauling 6 corn to the prison dispenser uses the cooking job priority which is depressing. I don't even care if a hauler spends half the day doing that, but it ends up interrupting cooks other jobs since cooking has to be high priority. Should be under basic or haul. Or implement RSA......

[Shurp]

The dispenser turns 0.5 units of nutrition into 1.0.  A cook turns 0.5 into 0.9.  0.1 nutrition isn't enough of a bonus in nutrition to seem worthwhile, not unless you're dumping haygrass in. 

As for the time penalty of having a dedicated cook, the more colonists you have the less of an impact losing some to cooking is.  2 colonists out of 10 spending all day cooking is no different than 1 colonist out of 3 spending half his day cooking.  And if you're willing to spend time training cooks you can turn otherwise useless pawns into cooks while other pawns do real work.

[Yoshida Keiji]

Don't hunt animals that revenge in herds, until you can handle animals that revenge in herds.

This +1 (+2 with 5thHorseman). You are hunting with a rifle and a revolver, I hunt them down with bows...

But let's go back to the opening post before talking about the NPD.

Here we have again the same problem as before, misdirection of Ludeon Studios development time. You want to address a problem that is actually "non-existent", while Tynan and company should be addressing REAL problems. And by giving attention to "your" problem, you end up jeopardizing more important matters that need prioritization:


1.- Pathfinding: This is something that players who actually watch their hunters will notice as opposed to players who don't keep track of their pawns. A hunter will most likely position itself in a location that "auto-corners" him/her in case he/she needs to flee, more often than not with the back towards a mountain and the targets blocking the way out. Because pawn AI is extremely stupid, even if they can shoot from the gates of a City Wall, they will still go outside and camp in awkward places. This is, I reiterate, Priority level 1 in need of fixing.


2.- Catch up intelligence: Again, like point number 1, you will know this if you actually do keep track of your pawns. Sometimes, a colony gets hit by Cold Snap, or simply hard snow winter and animals start to leave the map, so if you assign pawns to go hunting before they leave, they will reach shooting range and start aiming, but because the target is on the move, they don't get enough time to even shoot a single bullet, so they proceed to chase again and stop...again...in range...but ...again...they cant shoot because their warm-up is too slow... So you can only solve this manually...again...because pawn AI is extremely stupid. This, can be put as Priority level 2 in urgency of fixing.


3.- Selective Revenge: This next one is kinda odd but has low priority...but still higher than your problem. Pack animals or herd animals turn into "Revenge" when they spot their shooter...but they NEVER go Revenge when attacked by a natural Predator which should be logical, reasonable and common sense even for animals... but then again...my memory serves me well and reminds me...that YOU have problems with Predators attacks...because you don't keep track of your pawns...



All, these three game development failures require "more" attention that "your" problems...and telling Tynan & Co, to "adjust" the game just for you... only brings disappointment to the vast majority of the Community who is still looking forward for the first three points to be finally fixed before version 1.0 hits the shelves... (and the reason why we still need a B20, B21 and maybe B22 before the "official release").

[B@R5uk]

Yeah, pathfinding is terrible. Entirely agree. But catching up intelligence problem is much more difficult to solve unlike pathfinding for which there are ready solutions. You should take into account animal speed and warm up time and let pawns place themselves at distance where animal cannot run away before shot is made. Most of the time this tactic will place pawn too close to be save enough, so you should make a compromise or take animal moving direction in consideration. Or maybe you should let pawn switch target to the nearest one every time previous target left shooting range. There is so much options, so I think whichever gamedevs choose there would be always someone who will not like the choice.

The dispenser turns 0.5 units of nutrition into 1.0.  A cook turns 0.5 into 0.9.  0.1 nutrition isn't enough of a bonus in nutrition to seem worthwhile, not unless you're dumping haygrass in.

Your arithmetic is wrong. Dispenser turn 6 unit of ingredients with nutrition value of 0.30 into 1 meal that gives every pawn 0.75 nutrition on average unless you micromanage them to be ravenously hungry before eating. Thus 2.50 conversion factor. Cook turn 10 units of ingredients with nutrition value of 0.50 into 1 meal that also gives every pawn 0.75 nutrition. Thus 1.50 conversion factor. See, it's at 40% cheaper with dispenser and you can last at 67% longer.

...the more colonists you have the less of an impact losing some to cooking is...

Totally agree. Also cooking train cooking skill and I like when every single person have every single skill at least at 10 value. So there was no irreplaceable person. It helps a lot in different situations. And at least 1 pawn should have 10 in cooking as butchering efficiency is 100% only if skill is 10 or more. Of cause if you doesn't let them have bionics or archotech hands.

Hauling 6 corn to the prison dispenser uses the cooking job priority which is depressing. I don't even care if a hauler spends half the day doing that, but it ends up interrupting cooks other jobs since cooking has to be high priority. Should be under basic or haul. Or implement RSA......

Yeah, there is such a problem. I always solve it with zoning dispencers out and letting dogs haul.

And yeah, random scheduling algorithm is beautiful as dogs display.

[TheMeInTeam]

Exploiting AI mechanics is always an option, but generally people try to avoid needing that on any difficulty except Merciless.

Not at all off topic, nor a non sequitur (the topic is something being ridiculous due to the difficulty it poses) and it followed from him talking about how hard it is to hunt entire herds of caribou in the tundra.

The closest I got to ad hominem was a my cannibal/bloodlust inspired comment about what would happen if they got nutrient paste removed from the game. I blame RimWorld for that one, I recently clad one of my Bloodlust-ed (not-yet-nutrient-paste-eating) colonists in several articles of human leather clothing.

I never said anyone here was whining, though I heavily implied it. What I actually said was that whining does not help! Which is, in fact, true, and not at all offensive!

Difficulty where it is expected is not a game bug.

Note that the discussion of my post definitely is off topic, so I suggest we take this to PM after my response so as to not mess up the thread. Your poor grasp of the terms non sequitur and ad hominem made me grin a bit, though -- thanks.

I didn't suggest any exploits.  Using doors for cover/pathing advantage is a core part of the game.  The only coherent position that claims this "exploit" would wind up also concluding things like growing indoors to be an exploit, it's silly.

The cannibal/bloodlust thing is reasonably interpreted as a joke, I have no issue with that at all.  It's the "implied" whining I consider an ad hominem in discussing these topics.  It doesn't add anything to the point of either side, as language it's a tactic that seeks to trivialize/undermine the credibility of the other opinion without actually adding anything extra to demonstrate why the other opinion is mistaken.

My own position on this is different from OP's.  I mostly dislike that hunting remains a choice between tedium (manual/draft + proper positioning, virtually no chance of accidents) and either losses or savescumming (letting pawns automatically hunt marked animals).  Neither of these are palatable options to me, though I tend towards draft hunting regardless.  On the highest difficulty there aren't any herd animals that can possibly match the threat of certain raid types within 1 year, but that still doesn't mean the interaction with hunting is in a good place...automation traps usually aren't.

You just build additional stoves. As a Lost Tribe exclusive player, I always end up with 2 Fueled Stoves and the third or fourth are Electric Stoves.

Did something change very recently to nerf cooking speed?  One fueled stove shouldn't have any issues keeping up with 10 pawns.  I've had cooking time to spare with nearly 20 pawns using one electric stove.  For those late game 40+ pawn Randy colonies I refuse to manage I could legit see the need for more.

Paste is pretty work efficient but the mood hit variance between fine meal and nutrient paste is pretty large.  It's like playing with something worse than the pessimist trait constantly, for me this is hard to work around with the mood constraints on the highest difficulty.  You need to block mental breaks regardless of the swing or paste becomes less efficient due to the breaks.

[vzoxz0]

Wish you had actually taken this to PMs as I wrote, but I guess if you want to sidetrack, I can sidetrack too!

I didn't suggest any exploits. 

No one said you did.

It's the "implied" whining I consider an ad hominem in discussing these topics.  It doesn't add anything to the point of either side, as language it's a tactic that seeks to trivialize/undermine the credibility of the other opinion without actually adding anything extra to demonstrate why the other opinion is mistaken.

Ad hominem as a term is clearly defined. You just don't know what it means. The same way you don't know what a non sequitur means. How about you lay off the Latin as a rhetorical tool while criticizing mine, as you don't seem to have a firm grasp? I still fail to see the "hostility" in saying something is whining. I whine about my chocolate trees being destroyed by cold. Everybody whines about something.

Did something change very recently to nerf cooking speed?  One fueled stove shouldn't have any issues keeping up with 10 pawns.  I've had cooking time to spare with nearly 20 pawns using one electric stove.  For those late game 40+ pawn Randy colonies I refuse to manage I could legit see the need for more.

If you're mentioning "recent changes" why not mention which version your magic trick is on as well? I think it's highly unlikely you'll have a colony reliably making 40+ meals a day without mods, unless you whip your cook half to death. When you play with mods, a lot of things change, like the efficiency of cooking (a lot of people use the "make 4 at a time" mod, which saves a ridiculous amount of time).

It sounds to me like you are using a lot of mods. 1 stove and 20 people is completely unfeasible unless you want the colonists to take raw food to inventory and eat it on missions.

Paste is pretty work efficient but the mood hit variance between fine meal and nutrient paste is pretty large.  It's like playing with something worse than the pessimist trait constantly, for me this is hard to work around with the mood constraints on the highest difficulty.  You need to block mental breaks regardless of the swing or paste becomes less efficient due to the breaks.

I think you meant difference, not variance, though the attempt at seeming more knowledgeable than you actually are is noted. I recommend dictionary.com as a way of not misleading people with your words.

On the highest difficulty, nutrient paste offers no real disadvantages beyond the value it adds to the colony, because the time you gain for recreation and other work tasks more than compensates. That is to say past the point where you need to spend a lot of time on it every day, which is about 8 colonists.

Fine meals requires you to have access to meat on a constant basis, which requires a freezer for a large colony, which means you need to dedicate space, time, material and energy to it. These things can be better spent making drugs, growing cloth for bulk sale (no processing), or creating artworks you can smash up and put all around your colony.

[Scavenger]

Ive never used nutrient paste either, remove!

No way!!! How will I feed my pack of dromdaries with elephant meat paste?!

You know that's how they get mad elephant disease right..?

[Scavenger]

Manhunter them with mortars.  Greet them in your kill box.

Hallelujah it's raining death!

[Scavenger]

Nutrient paste is basically a necessity past 8 pawns, it becomes way too tedious to maintain a decent amount of meals.

You just build additional stoves. As a Lost Tribe exclusive player, I always end up with 2 Fueled Stoves and the third or fourth are Electric Stoves.

I just use that meals mod.. you just make four meals at a time with four times the ingredients instead of one, to cut down on the amount of trips running back and forth. Balanced and a great Improvement.

[Scavenger]

Nutrient paste is basically a necessity past 8 pawns, it becomes way too tedious to maintain a decent amount of meals.

You just build additional stoves. As a Lost Tribe exclusive player, I always end up with 2 Fueled Stoves and the third or fourth are Electric Stoves.

I find I can go up to about 15 or so with a single stove, though that cook is almost relegated to the kitchen full time when not sleeping or playing. That's 30 fine meals in the 10 or so hours I make them work or 3 meals an hour. Which seems a bit ridiculous but hey it is what it is. I guess most of that is travel time even tough all the ingredients are on hand, and plus there's walking to and from the kitchen.

Once I start falling behind on meals I usually just decide who's the other cook and move them to the night shift. I used to make 2 stoves but then realized they were sitting idle for over half the day.

Feed the colonists mod cuts down hard on the walking time for ingredients! And it's balanced. And should probably be in the vanilla game.

[TheMeInTeam]

No one said you did.

True, you didn't explicitly mention what I said as exploiting the AI.  If that isn't the assertion being made then there are numerous early-game safe methods to handle herd revenge that don't "exploit AI" regardless of difficulty.

If you're mentioning "recent changes" why not mention which version your magic trick is on as well? I think it's highly unlikely you'll have a colony reliably making 40+ meals a day without mods, unless you whip your cook half to death.

Earlier 1.0, vanilla.  I've been gone a month or two, no-lifing dungeon crawl stone soup for gaming mostly.

Anyway I'm going to assume vanilla unless someone designates they're using a mod.  Likewise, for the purposes of this discussion (and in general with me) if I'm not mentioning a mod that alters gameplay I don't have one active.

In 1.0 as of ~6-8 weeks ago using work shifts and either hauler animals or people to haul you could have 1 stove cover not just 15-20 pawns but heavily overcook meal counts, assuming electric stove by then (even as tribal you generally would).

I think you meant difference, not variance, though the attempt at seeming more knowledgeable than you actually are is noted. I recommend dictionary.com as a way of not misleading people with your words.

More ad hominem (directing discussion at a person rather than the argument, which implying someone is "whining" also does).  I'm not misleading anybody either, a simple look at dictionary.com confirms my usage appropriate.  There's no need to be hostile, and there's no reason to infer I meant mean square deviation in this context (which is the 3rd definition).

It isn't trivial to combine even two alternative sources of mood boosts to gain a +9 mood improvement, not for the cost of securing two food sources and cooking.  In contrast, it's not that hard to haul large animals into a relatively small freezer and allow butchering as needed.

[zizard]

Unfortunately force to use wiki because I'm not at the rimputer, but it says fine meals take 8 work, and with 1000 seconds in a day theoretically a single stove can make over 100 meals a day so 40 seems plausible.

[5thHorseman]

...as in 1.0 it's reportedly been removed as a mechanic...

No, it still works.

Oh cool. Though I recall distinctly Tynan mentioning that it was part of fixing something else. Maybe he undid that fix or found a way to do the fix while keeping the stool mechanic.

[Scavenger]

...as in 1.0 it's reportedly been removed as a mechanic...

No, it still works.

Oh cool. Though I recall distinctly Tynan mentioning that it was part of fixing something else. Maybe he undid that fix or found a way to do the fix while keeping the stool mechanic.

Or just use feed the colonists.. prevent you from having to have yet another colonists constantly haul resources over to that spot as often.