Sandbags nerfed?

Started by Adamiks, November 12, 2018, 11:11:29 PM

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Adamiks

I just noticed that if you place sandbags (or steel/stone chunks) next to each other, the pawns will be slowed only by the first one and walk through the rest with normal speed.

I think it's a nerf to kill-corridors filled with sandbags, but, if that's the case, that's one of the most backwards nerfs i've seen in a while, cause if you leave a free space between the sandbags, pawns get slowed by both. So kill-corridors are as viable as before - just have to be 2x longer.

Meanwhile, i use chunks and place them around my base to slow enemies, but, they don't get slowed at all (only by the first chunk) because of this bizarre mechanic.

To be honest, i really despise this kind of nerfing. The nerf done to traps really itches me too. Why go for these wacky nerfs instead of just improving the AI? Giving the players means to defend themselves and then nerfing them all (can't control mini-turrets, walls and especially doors are weaker, this pass-through nerf, traps can't be placed next to each other and get destroyed) in one way or another because they just take advantage of AI's dumbness is, well, dumb.

AileTheAlien

I think it's been like this for a few versions now. Either way, I don't mind it, since I can head-canon it away. I just imagine solid lines of sandbags or chunks, as flat(-ish) surfaces that enemies can easily walk over.

Jibbles

#2
There are many nerfs I disagree with but I do support this one.  It's too cheap/effective and requires almost no effort.
However, I wish there was some kind of item or mechanic to support the strategy of slowing down pawns if one desires to do so. There are marshes and rivers but those are generated so something more hands on would be nice. 

A while back, I modded a one time use item which would make pawns walk slowly on the tiles it effects. I personally didn't find it OP as it was still risky to use and it's something you didn't want to spam cause of the cost and beauty. It was useful tho and changes how you'd approach the raid.

I used to cluster tree around my base instead of building walls to slow down raids and for looks.  Of course there are flaws with that.  Not sure why we can't cluster those anymore. :(

The door nerf... Yeah, I'm still not over that one. Hey guys just walk right in!!! (┛◉Д◉)┛彡┻━┻

Adamiks

It is too cheap and effective, sure, but the issue is, it does nothing to change that fact. Just leave a space in-between and you're good. Useless nerf, really.

And yea, the door nerf, first thing i did was look for a mod to change that, it's triggering, a person with no arms would be able to close a door faster than colonists in 1.0

Yoshida Keiji

I honestly believe that A17 was way better than version 1.0, in my opinion Tynan messed up real bad.


I find deadfall trap disappearing after one trigger totally senseless.

I hate the slow-mo doors too, but it actually turned to our favor. I assume you are well acquainted with "Urban warfare", if you were used to this, the new hard to close door system can be used to split a raid into half (which is all we need to kill so they leave us in peace), by simply leaving a fast walker at the door and all shooters in a kill box-like position surrounding that door. The first half will enter and the last half will remain banging random spots of your city wall. Image it as a "controlled corridor of death".

The speed of door closing doesn't really make any difference, it was a total waste of Developer Time due to the fact that Ludeon Studios ended up listening too much to cheesy whiners which is like 80% of this Community.

Jibbles

Sorry Adamiks.  I kind of shifted this thread to doors.  Just haven't seen any posts about it + sandbag nerf has been around for a while. I agree it doesn't make much difference at the end of the day.

Yoshida, I'm aware of the small quirks and advantages that slow doors introduced. So the change confuses me since the issues are rather obvious. Not only do I have to determine if my pawns will retreat in time, I also have to calculate closing doors in time. LOTS of players complained when he nerf hp to doors during unstable, surely I missed the complaints about this? Needs revert or tweak. Anyways, there's my opinion on the subject.


Yoshida Keiji

About the sandbags, I have no problem with the subsequent units not slowing down advance. In real life, if sandbags are one next to each other, it's pretty much the same as walking straight on a wall, specially if the wall is also one meter wide. On the other hand, if the sandbags have a one meter separation between them, that means that I would have to make 1 meter long jump from every sand bag like Sasuke/Ninja warrior courses. It "is" harder to path if they are not continued.

5thHorseman

Also, sandbags spaced 1 meter apart allow you to put traps between them.

What a terrible nerf to their effectiveness!
Toolboxifier - Soil Clarifier
I never got how pawns in the game could have such insanely bad reactions to such mundane things.
Then I came to the forums.

jpinard

SO if you space sandbags 1 space apart, and say you have 3 rows of them leading out to your enemy... will each subsequent row hurt your accuracy targeting the enemy?

TheMeInTeam

Quote from: Yoshida Keiji on November 13, 2018, 10:14:25 AM
About the sandbags, I have no problem with the subsequent units not slowing down advance. In real life, if sandbags are one next to each other, it's pretty much the same as walking straight on a wall, specially if the wall is also one meter wide. On the other hand, if the sandbags have a one meter separation between them, that means that I would have to make 1 meter long jump from every sand bag like Sasuke/Ninja warrior courses. It "is" harder to path if they are not continued.

Always a step ahead of the raiders :p.  If doors close slowly you can separate raiders as you describe.  When they closed more quickly you could regularly shoot enemies by opening/closing them, while the enemies would not shoot back.

Short of a major AI tactics upgrade doors are going to stay pretty ruinous to raiders.

5thHorseman

Quote from: jpinard on November 13, 2018, 12:03:02 PM
SO if you space sandbags 1 space apart, and say you have 3 rows of them leading out to your enemy... will each subsequent row hurt your accuracy targeting the enemy?
No. Your accuracy will only be hurt if they are stopped behind a row, and that row will only hurt your accuracy not the ones before it.

But if those sandbags are in a sideways hallway before your killbox, all they'll do is slow people down.
Toolboxifier - Soil Clarifier
I never got how pawns in the game could have such insanely bad reactions to such mundane things.
Then I came to the forums.

jpinard

Quote from: 5thHorseman on November 13, 2018, 06:58:04 PM
Quote from: jpinard on November 13, 2018, 12:03:02 PM
SO if you space sandbags 1 space apart, and say you have 3 rows of them leading out to your enemy... will each subsequent row hurt your accuracy targeting the enemy?
No. Your accuracy will only be hurt if they are stopped behind a row, and that row will only hurt your accuracy not the ones before it.

But if those sandbags are in a sideways hallway before your killbox, all they'll do is slow people down.

So on the flip side, the extras won't hurt my enemies aim either (for more than one sandbag)?

5thHorseman

Quote from: jpinard on November 14, 2018, 03:16:51 PM
So on the flip side, the extras won't hurt my enemies aim either (for more than one sandbag)?
That is correct.
Toolboxifier - Soil Clarifier
I never got how pawns in the game could have such insanely bad reactions to such mundane things.
Then I came to the forums.

Scavenger

Quote from: Adamiks on November 12, 2018, 11:11:29 PM
I just noticed that if you place sandbags (or steel/stone chunks) next to each other, the pawns will be slowed only by the first one and walk through the rest with normal speed.

I think it's a nerf to kill-corridors filled with sandbags, but, if that's the case, that's one of the most backwards nerfs i've seen in a while, cause if you leave a free space between the sandbags, pawns get slowed by both. So kill-corridors are as viable as before - just have to be 2x longer.

Meanwhile, i use chunks and place them around my base to slow enemies, but, they don't get slowed at all (only by the first chunk) because of this bizarre mechanic.

To be honest, i really despise this kind of nerfing. The nerf done to traps really itches me too. Why go for these wacky nerfs instead of just improving the AI? Giving the players means to defend themselves and then nerfing them all (can't control mini-turrets, walls and especially doors are weaker, this pass-through nerf, traps can't be placed next to each other and get destroyed) in one way or another because they just take advantage of AI's dumbness is, well, dumb.

Lol because it's a lame mechanic. And if they have to be twice as long, they aren't viable..? Things will rarely stick to a cooridor as is, unless they spawn facing it head-on and their target is directly at the other end. AI is better now, and will Target other points. Which is great, them walking dumbly into cheap kill corridors was no fun.
"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth." - Oscar Wilde