Ludeon Studios has riduclously hypocritical policies

[Bozobub]

NON-graphical depications (in other words, that don't qualify as "obscene" under the law, a very specific label but not easy to define without its own freaking dissertation ) of underage sexuality are completely legal in the US.  Otherwise, Nabokov's "Lolita" would be illegal, as an excellent example.  It is also quite legal, in specific cases, to own depictions of nude children, if it can be classified as "art", rather than "obscenity" (again, yes, the law is quite vague about this).  Don't be wrong or you'll be very, very sorry !

This has already been through the courts more than once in the US, all the way up to SCOTUS.  In fact, "Lolita" itself faced a lot of the same scrutiny and pressure.  The legal precedent so far, is that *actual, graphic depictions of sexual acts* (penetration, oral sex, and so on) are illegal, but otherwise, this is protected speech, just like any other.

And none of this means diddly, if Ludeon simply doesn't want even the hint of a sniff of this type of scandal hooked to their name.  They already get enough guff for encouraging slavery, cannibalism, and fashioning your neighbors into fine eveningwear, wouldn't you agree?  They also probably have had quite enough of ANYTHING re: sexuality/gender, considering the brouhaha over gender assignment they already faced .  And legal or not, Ludeon also has to placate both Steam and parents, as RimWorld is marketed to all ages.

As noted repeatedly above, both Ludeon and Steam can do as they damn well please, as private entities (that *are not* beholden to laws re: "freedom of speech", by the by).

[Nafensoriel]

Should correct something. It's not technically legal in America(the laws are still broad and require interpretation of the courts). It's just not legally enforced under certain conditions. IE all things related to CP require eventual legal interpretation. This wasn't done without thought. Different states have different definitions of what is defined as "underage" in America.

TLDR:
-CP is always illegal in America.
-Anything "underage" performing a sexual act in any form of media is illegal.
-"Underage" is ambiguous and often requires a definition for situations not involving actual persons.
-Enforcement of situations not involving an actual person generally doesn't get looked at unless there is a complaint or its blatant(like the skyrim case)
-Certain limited cases have to be allowed existence due to technicalities. In the case of Lolita, the girl is not the 12-year-old from the original book but rather a 14-year-old. 14 is legally capable of both marriage and sex in many American states which was actually one of the primary reasons it was allowed.

Children and situations involving them are not granted arbitrary freedom of speech from the government like adults. Children are granted legal freedoms as they age. There is no allowance given for freedom of speech as related to art and underaged children.

It should be noted that anime has a subtext similar to Lolita though for the life of me I can't remember it. This is STILL a hotly debated and monitored media because it sits squarely on the line of legality. These types of legal arguments and the lawyers who pursue them are critically important to our legal system. People like to assume a law is just a law... but laws only come from long and brutally detailed debates on subjects.

[Bozobub]

Um, no.  Again, if it doesn't show *an actual sexual act* (literally showing penetration, NOT just suggesting it's happening) yes, it is legal in depiction.  You don't get to gainsay SCOTUS, sorry.

Ever seen the movie "Kids"?  Legal.  And that's live action, to boot.

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not too interested in going into discussion on the technicalities in this context, I at least understand that the laws on this are different from what I guessed. 

I've seen the effects abuse has on actual children and their family.  It's awful.  Even considering OP context under the same legal definition defies logic.  These are not the same thing in the same sense that acts of violence in video games are not the same thing as acts of violence in reality.  Ask the victims in each case.

I don't blame devs ducking legal issues though, bizarre or not.

[Nafensoriel]

Um, no.  Again, if it doesn't show *an actual sexual act* (literally showing penetration, NOT just suggesting it's happening) yes, it is legal in depiction.  You don't get to gainsay SCOTUS, sorry.

Ever seen the movie "Kids"?  Legal.  And that's live action, to boot.

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 was struck down on only two points. The original wording of CPPA could have been construed as anything remotely resembling an underaged person which would, in fact, restrict freedom of speech without actually engaging in anything nefarious(Romeo and Juliet comes to mind). The strike did not convert any aspect of CP laws to allow CP of any kind and it remains fully illegal in America under the previously listed points.

It again boils down to the on the spot definition of what constitutes an underaged person and what constitutes a sexual act. This is explicitly  not defined very well and is considerably different between states. One state may suggest dry humping is sex. Another requires penetration. Age also varies between 14 and 18. Due to free trade with Mexico, we also have to consider it can be as low as 12. In the event of a federal crime(such as CP) The general stance is to take the least extreme starting position. Especially with media which travels across borders state or national.
Its the "sims" category again. If you explicitly describe or display the act it is considered the act. If you just have two actors above the age of 14 grunting and groaning in the back seat of a car with no physical nudity displayed that is NOT considered a violation at this time. The supreme court decision was NOT in reference to this interpretation of CP. It was EXCLUSIVELY in reference to the CPPAs wording being too ambiguous as to allow situations in which someone who APPEARS young to be considered as REPRESENTING a child.

Even in the film being discussed before it was allowed to begin filming the MPAA required the age be altered to comply with CP regulations. These types of films are always treading a very fine razor's edge. Hell, the only reason the book is allowed is due to its historical status similar to Romeo and Juliet.

If you are wondering about my references to this... I once took a long stint helping PTSD victims as I've suffered from the condition myself and didn't eat a bullet getting over it. I didn't know when I agreed that two of the victims were children. I've since ensured any who ask are fully aware of their rights and obligations concerning this topic.

[Bozobub]

The.  Movie.  "Kids".  Was.  And. Is.  Perfectly.  Legal.  Haven't seen it, have you?  Because yes, it depicts underage sex.

Sorry, no.  You aren't as well-informed as you believe you are. 

[Jibbles]

- I highly doubt there was group of people who flagged the mod on steam since the mod got re-uploaded and removed once again.  (hasn't it been on there for awhile?) Maybe you have a better chance keepin it there retitled as self lovin with different previews uploaded by someone else.

- I've never used the mod, but it doesn't reveal much right? just as much as "lovin" does? If that is the case then TheMeInTeam raised a valid point.

- Unless I've missed something, it seems to me no one still knows if it was Ludeon or steam.  I'm leaning more towards steam at the moment.  So just upload the mod to the forums.  If it was indeed Tynan or anyone from Ludeon that got it removed then they definitely should've stepped up and said something about it by now if they haven't already.

[Kirby23590]

I think i kinda blame Steam on this part and not Ludeon...

I don't know but you said something in the mod page about adding in a new filth type... But i think rather not do that with that sticky- well i rather not say it, since that's why people are freaking out...

I even never used this mod either, however in vanilla Rimworld i know what 'Lovin means' similar to what 'Woohoo means' in The Sims, and they are more in the G or PG Rated stuff instead...

I don't really know if someone in VALVE or Ludeon is actually removing your mod from steam... But i think i kinda agree what Jibbles said, maybe you should put your mod into the Ludeon Forums instead with a Dropbox or a Google Drive link instead, so that it won't get auto removed here...

[Bozobub]

That sounds like a good idea to me.  Even if it WAS removed, I'm completely certain the reasoning would be given to you, unlike Steam's opaque BS >.<'.

[Nafensoriel]

The.  Movie.  "Kids".  Was.  And. Is.  Perfectly.  Legal.  Haven't seen it, have you?  Because yes, it depicts underage sex.

Sorry, no.  You aren't as well-informed as you believe you are.

Shits and giggles time. I just finished watching this movie with the aforementioned mental health professionals I used to work with.
Explicit talk. Limited nudity. No minor nudity. Actors above the technical legal sexual age. All scenes explicitly crafted to ensure they did not cross the razor edge into CP. Suggestion is only act when explicitly depicted. Explicit description is not act without nudity. We also actually checked the related movie laws of GB, Canada, and america. My previous statements still stand as accurate.

Yes. I do know exactly what I'm talking about with this subject. I know it well enough to know how the people who do this kind of garbage have to tread a fine line for their perversions and how they continue to lobby to legalize their perversions. I also know why its the one issue that will make war hardened agents break down into full blown sobbing tears... and I know this fact very intimately.

As this is a video game forum though and all possible information on why a masturbation mod could have been incorrectly moderated as CP or automatically moderated by complaint of uninformed individuals this will be the last post on CP subject matter by me. If you want to further educate yourself with how to spot, handle, and prevent CP contact me via PM.

[Jebus]

That sounds like a good idea to me.  Even if it WAS removed, I'm completely certain the reasoning would be given to you, unlike Steam's opaque BS >.<'.

All I get is this email. No message on Steam or anything else. This is the whole email (minus the "Dear [Steam Username]" at the top).



Anyways, I'm not going to fight this anymore. I haven't even played the game since 0.18. I just wanted the 8k+ people to still be able to use my mod. But this is all just pissing me off and not worth the energy anymore.

[Jibbles]

All I get is this email. No message on Steam or anything else. This is the whole email (minus the "Dear [Steam Username]" at the top).



Anyways, I'm not going to fight this anymore. I haven't even played the game since 0.18. I just wanted the 8k+ people to still be able to use my mod. But this is all just pissing me off and not worth the energy anymore.

Interesting.. Sorry about the mod being banned. For what it's worth I call bs on it too.

[Sunfish]

On the legal end, isn't Ludeon based in Canada? That'd make things a lot more complicated. I think RimWorld would also have to comply to the laws in each country it gets sold in, not just the country in which they're based. Given how the laws and interpretations are so varied in just this thread, I think it's safe to assume they're just trying avoid dealing with the issue entirely.

For violence, I remember Left 4 Dead 1/2 both had to remove a lot of gore and special effects to be sold in Australia. It's not unheard of for games to have to cut content to sell internationally.

Violence and the depictions therof are just a lot more legally clear on what you can and can't do. Even depictions of adult sexuality can be a legal minefield depending on the country, let alone when someone <18 is invovled.

That said, I think logically, in the context of this game (including it's highly abstracted graphics), it's not like making or using this mod is weird, creepy, or wrong. It's unfortunate that the OP got caught in crossfire so to speak. I think it's fair and understandable for him to be upset.

[Kirby23590]

Sad...

But there is always another way outside of the steam workshop like Github and other download sites out there.

Jebus if you really want people to use your mod, put it somewhere else...

But i could see why VALVE Wouldn't like the mod being in the Workshop. And some games have to remove some content that is gorey, bloody or +18 rated to make it to be played and sold in some countries out there...

[ReZpawner]

Christ on a raft, just stick it on loverslab or something with the rest of the cartoony gameporn. Why on earth would you put it on steam anyways? The people looking for that particular kind of mod would use the page previously mentioned, or something like it, not steam workshop.