Turret changes

[Pangaea]

I'm not able to play the newest version yet, but I see there went in some changes about turrets on the wiki, and assuming those are correct (they probably are), all turrets have been nerfed harshly (and had a cost increase for usage).

Is this another example of the "tune it to the extreme" at first, and then see how wildly people react, then gradually roll it back? Because if the current changes stand, with pretty hefty nerfs to damage, range and cost-increase, I'm not sure there is much point in building them at all.

[Jibbles]

I'd have to agree with you Pangaea.  If there aren't any nerfs to armor or mechs then those stats are whack, still no improvement on explosionondamage chance :p 

Maybe the cost of refuel went up since you'll no longer run out of resources on map when it comes to deep-drilling.  Not sure if players will benefit much from that feature now unless mining speeds increased.  I hardly played 1.0 but I never came close to depleting all steel/other resources on map with deep drilling. Anyways, sadly expect a nerf of some sort by the end of this update.

[mooguy]

I did a post a few days ago outlining some of the turret changes. There also has been heavy nerfs across all turrets.

However it should be said that it's not entirely a nerf in the broader sense and the game hasn't been made objectively harder.

For example:

- The plasteel cost for the turrets has been decreased.
- the market value for the turrets might of also decreased, so the raids will be a little weaker to mach the weaker turrets.
- The charge lance's range received a massive nerf - it's now fallen down to 30. So no more massive long range kill shots.
- It might be other mech weapons have also been nerfed..

I think the updates have been really good, the game has become more game a bit more tactical. Especially now since IED"s can be activated by being shot, animals how more clear roles (rather than muffalo being used for food, wool, caravans and defence).

If people want the game to be more passive-defensive, they can just use those mods that add insane turrets and power generators.  But if the game is already easy, most of the time it's only made more easier through mods - so IMO this way is good.

[Teleblaster18]

What is the nerf to defensive structures (and I include walls in that category) designed to accomplish, ultimately? 

[Jibbles]

However it should be said that it's not entirely a nerf in the broader sense and the game hasn't been made objectively harder.

There will be people who struggle with that change.. In my case, it's not about difficulty, it's about time & the fact there won't be much reason to build them.

- The plasteel cost for the turrets has been decreased.
- the market value for the turrets might of also decreased, so the raids will be a little weaker to mach the weaker turrets.

How so? The cost to build looks the same to me.

- The charge lance's range received a massive nerf - it's now fallen down to 30. So no more massive long range kill shots.

Range attack is actually increased. Charge lance range use to be 36.9, currently 29.9.  The needle gun range is currently 44.9.. Shooting IED's is nothing new. Sorry, not trying to call out all the details. So far, current stats seems like a definite nerf to security and resources unless there are some other factors at play that hasn't been mentioned yet. Sure, turrets won't be useless, but they aren't worth building.

[Teleblaster18]

Sure, turrets won't be useless, but they aren't worth building.

My concern is not that turrets aren't worth building - I find that turrets' ability to draw fire away from my colonists is actually more important (both in a killbox, and in open spaces) than their offensive capabilities.

Rather, my concern is that the same end result in 1.0 can and will be accomplished in 1.1- it will just take longer, cost more, and not achieve anything other than a resource drain, which can be overcome to begin with.

In short: no real change in turret deployment or function, but it'll just be more repetitive and tiresome.  That'd be bad for gameplay, IMO.

ATM, I'm in the process of using the new 1.1 structures in a 1.0 killbox design to see how it plays out over a wide array of raids.  I'm not done yet, but so far, this is the only real change that I'm feeling.

[Jibbles]

Rather, my concern is that the same end result in 1.0 can and will be accomplished in 1.1- it will just take longer, cost more, and not achieve anything other than a resource drain, which can be overcome to begin with.

I agree teleblaster.  That was kind of my point too when I mentioned time in my post.  There have been bunch of small tweaks throughout development that prolong gameplay, yet many of them don't really impact your experience, just takes longer to do things.  Can't say I'm a fan of that.

[mooguy]

How so? The cost to build looks the same to me.

I'll need to double check as i might be wrong but i think the cost of the mini plasteel turret to build used to be 60 plasteel - now it is 30. Although rearming it costs more steel, however steel is easier to come by then plasteel.

I believe the market value of the turrets also went down, which in theory means the raids won't be as strong per turret you have, since the strength of raids is somewhat based on the total market value of all the items you own.

So that's why i said in the broad sense it's hard to say the game has gotten harder, since turrets in some costs have been reduced, and the raids won't increase as much as you increase the amount of turrets as they did before, although that is a bit balanced by them being less effective.

Range attack is actually increased. Charge lance range use to be 36.9, currently 29.9.  The needle gun range is currently 44.9.. Shooting IED's is nothing new. Sorry, not trying to call out all the details. So far, current stats seems like a definite nerf to security and resources unless there are some other factors at play that hasn't been mentioned yet. Sure, turrets won't be useless, but they aren't worth building.

True, the needle gun's range is huge, but the damage and armor penetration isn't as high, so your pawns might get injured but won't get outright one shot'ed from the distances a charge lancer was able to do at previous 36 range. To me more variety is nice. 

I dunno, defining the end game is so challenging since people always want different things from it. In 1.1 it's now been made easier to harness infinite resources form your map rather than needing to travel/trade, so in some ways through 1.1 the game grind has gotten quicker.

Like some people don't want it to end, or the difference in building a ship for 3+ colonists vs 20+.

[DubskiDude]

I gave a small amount of pushback to Tynan on the turret nerf when it was first being floated in the 1.1/Royalty beta. Part of my pushback was to keep autocannons from being obsolete in comparison to four mini-turrets (they take up the same amount of space, but ACs performed less in comparison).

Personally I'd still push for turrets to be buffed slightly. Tynan stated it was to discourage the player from turtling in their base, and put more emphasis on your pawns defending the colony, but turrets still feel pretty weak currently.