Confusing things about the new weapons

[Ser Kitteh]

Warhammer - damage 6.89, penetration 27%
Spear - damage 7.35, penetration 38%
Longsword - damage 8.60, penetration 33%

These are taken from the crafting menu at the smithy.

Shouldn't overall, the warhammer have more penetration? In 1.0 and before that, the longsword is superior. In fact, it's the best melee weapon all around, perfect against insects and power armor.

I must be missing something here.

[Canute]

Depend of the design of the warhammer.
If it is just a big sledgehammer, then the penetration is pretty low but with a big kabumm.
But most ancient warhammer got a top-notch special designed to break into heavy armors, which should have the highest penetration.
Longsword btw. shouldn't have that high penetration which is basicly a slash weapon to cut and rip of limbs and the weight is more near the grip for the balance and miss the power like a hammer got.

But hey you know any universe got his own rules, and at some of them they didn't even discover wheels ! :-)

[TrashMan]

Warhammer - damage 6.89, penetration 27%
Spear - damage 7.35, penetration 38%
Longsword - damage 8.60, penetration 33%

These are taken from the crafting menu at the smithy.

Shouldn't overall, the warhammer have more penetration? In 1.0 and before that, the longsword is superior. In fact, it's the best melee weapon all around, perfect against insects and power armor.

I must be missing something here.

No. Hammers don't really penetrate armor.
If it's non-rigid armor, like gambeson or chainmail or kevlar, it will break ribs. The padding will reduce the potency somewhat, but not by much.
Something like plate armor or power armor? You're goingot have a hard time even denting it. What made warhammers dangerous what that the shockwave/vibration of the impact traveled trough and revebrated around your insides. This could cause minor blood vein ruptures, sense of nausia, disorentation or downright stun you if hit on head. Basically hammers created an opening for you to throw a knight on the ground or slip a dagger trough. Enough hits could kill, but the armor itslef was rarely, if ever, penetrated.

[Ser Kitteh]

Well I am down for some realism, I was of the opinion that certain weapons were made for certain situations. Certainly if the Longsword was the best, why use any other in its "category", more or less?

[Canute]

After Tynan changed the combat system at B19/1.0 (can't remember) someone did testing with different weapons vs. different enemies.
So spear's got a high penetration and can stab multiple internas of a single target.
While a longsword could hit multiple targets at front with a single hit.

So each weapon got their special purpose.
But i can't say if this is still happen at 1.1

[DuckBoy]

Check the Sharp vs Blunt defense on various armors.  You'll find that Sharp goes above 120 on well made power armors, and blunt tends to stay well below half that.  So even though the warhammer penetration is lower, the armor value - penetration, which is what actually determines if you hit, and for half or full damage, is much better. 

No guarantees you'll beat a plasteel longsword with a uranium warhammer vs anything but the thickest armor, but if its steel daggers and steel clubs vs centipedes, I'd probably go for the clubs. 

Also, for prisoner taking, stick with blunt unless you like wasting all your medicine on treating raiders with infections. 

[Tynan]

I don't have the numbers in front of me but IIRC DuckBoy is right. These numbers are balanced on the armor side (with blunt consistently weaker), not by making blunt weapons penetrate more.

[Canute]

Tynan why do you think a warhammer is a blunt weapon ?


Maybe you think on a sledgehammer when you write warhammer ?
Warhammer is a piercing/blunt at the same time, depend which side you use.

[Ser Kitteh]

I don't have the numbers in front of me but IIRC DuckBoy is right. These numbers are balanced on the armor side (with blunt consistently weaker), not by making blunt weapons penetrate more.

I see, that's great to know!

I suppose at a glance, and perhaps even to new players, "penetration" means "armor piercing", which is why it can be confusing to someone who's not big on the maths.

[Tynan]

Tynan why do you think a warhammer is a blunt weapon ?
Maybe you think on a sledgehammer when you write warhammer ?
Warhammer is a piercing/blunt at the same time, depend which side you use.

Using flexible interpretations to include more gameplay tools variation.

[codyo]

Warhammer - damage 6.89, penetration 27%
Spear - damage 7.35, penetration 38%
Longsword - damage 8.60, penetration 33%

These are taken from the crafting menu at the smithy.

Shouldn't overall, the warhammer have more penetration? In 1.0 and before that, the longsword is superior. In fact, it's the best melee weapon all around, perfect against insects and power armor.

I must be missing something here.

So like the others have said, even though the DPS is lower on the hammer, it's still geared for tearing through armor. Every bit of apparel has different kinds of ratings against certain damage. Blunt damage has the lowest protection rating on everything.

For example, the cataphract armor. It has 120% sharpness armor rating. When attacked by a longsword, its armor-penetrating value of 33% brings the original rating down to 87%. That much of a percentage is left over for damage calculations.
It has a 50% blunt armor rating as well. The warhammer's own penetration from blunt damage brings the rating down to 33%.

With how armor calculations in Rimworld works. If you're attacking with a longsword, only 13% of attacks will do *full* damage and ignore the cataphract's armor. The rest of the time it's either halved or stopped entirely. If you're using a warhammer, then 77% of attacks will do *full* damage. That's a big difference on apparently the best armor in the game.

Of course this all changes when you use higher quality weapons or armor. I don't know how much armor piercing a Masterwork warhammer has, but I imagine it becomes basically the best melee weapon in the game by bringing most armor ratings close to 0%.

[TheMeInTeam]

Check the Sharp vs Blunt defense on various armors.  You'll find that Sharp goes above 120 on well made power armors, and blunt tends to stay well below half that.  So even though the warhammer penetration is lower, the armor value - penetration, which is what actually determines if you hit, and for half or full damage, is much better. 

No guarantees you'll beat a plasteel longsword with a uranium warhammer vs anything but the thickest armor, but if its steel daggers and steel clubs vs centipedes, I'd probably go for the clubs. 

Also, for prisoner taking, stick with blunt unless you like wasting all your medicine on treating raiders with infections.

Bleeding and then stalling raiders is the most early-game method available for downing them w/o the otherwise high chance of killing them in the act of downing them.  You do pay the cost of having to stall them out though.  I'd not want to do this with melee normally, but IMO infection risk is worth having a much higher chance of target raider living for capture early in the game.

If you don't care about that, defeat in detail w/ blunt will get past armor and the hit stun + multiple hits following up limit the damage taken.