[Royalty] How do skin hardening modifiers work?

[carbon]

Short Version:
Do skin hardening implants act as their own armor layer (separate from the Outer, Middle, Inner of worn armor), or as an additive to one or more of those existing layers.

If it's the former, I think Toughskin gland and perhaps some of the others may need a bump up in their values to be worthwhile.

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Long Version:
With the expansion there's a set of three skin implants that offer blunt, heat and sharp armor for the cost of the movement speed (and beauty). Right now I'm considering the lightest version "Toughskin gland" and whether it would ever really be worth it.

The relevant modifiers are:

Armor - Blunt    +10%
Armor - Heat    +20%
Armor - Sharp    +20%
Movement    x95%

Now you might be think: "Cool 10% to 20% damage reduction for 5% speed reduction, I can totally make that work!", except that's not really how it'll play out in practice.

Every single weapon and attack has some measure of armor penetration which directly cancels a corresponding amount of armor. Even for the most basic weaponry (steel knifes, a log, autopistols, etc.) this value is around 15%. Melee even without a weapon still has 12% armor penetration. Now when you apply that effective minimum penetration (15%) to the above values the reality begin to come into focus.

Armor - Blunt    +0%
Armor - Heat    +20%
Armor - Sharp    +5%

Then convert the above to damage reduction (i.e. x75%)

The relevant modifiers are:

Damage Reduction - blunt    +0%
Damage Reduction - Heat    +15%
Damage Reduction - Sharp    +3.8%

I hope its becoming clear by this point why I'm rather skeptical that this implant will ever be useful. Assuming an attack makes it through your proper armor, it's very unlikely some toughened skin will save you. All the while, you're moving 5% slower both in and out of combat which has real consequences.

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That being said, I did notice the "+" on all the armor modifiers (e.g. Armor - Blunt    +10%). For conventional armor descriptions, there's no plus. This makes me wonder whether the implant isn't acting as its own armor layer, but is instead additive with some other layer (e.g. Inner).

That would make the implant MUCH more effective, because adding +20% sharp armor to something like a leather button down with 20% (i.e. already above the 'minimum' 15%), means you get the full 20% armor (or 15% damage reduction).

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So my question is, does skin armor actually behave as its own layer or is it acting in a unique way to avoid armor penetration?

[Boboid]

If you install the skin implants you can find the listed armor value under the pawn's information screen - It's listed in the same way that armor is listed for animals so it's reasonable to assume that it functions like its own separate layer.

Also while I know that the damage reduction shorthand of x0.75 is convenient it's not super accurate.
Using your numbers in reality what happens is 2.5% of shots (assuming 1 decimal place during the RNG roll) deflect and 2.5% are mitigated by 50% and turned into blunt damage.
It might seem like a nitpick but the skin implants do cover the entire body including fragile bodyparts like fingers and toes.
Breakpoints make a large difference in pawn durability overall and obviously contribute significantly to limb loss.

That said the toughskin gland isn't blowing me away personally - Though it's probably quite useful for dealing with fire damage.
Not that I know off the top of my head what the armor penetration of fire is so it's a bit hard to determine the value of the heat resist. If you assume an AP of 0% for fire damage then that's quite a doozy.

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Of course given that the skin implants are late game tech and you by necessity have access to bionic legs at this point it's worth pointing out that you can still move faster than a standard pawn with a single bionic leg and toughskin (107%).
But equally if you have two bionic legs and stoneskin you still move at 106% while getting the much chunkier 50(Sharp)/40(Blunt)/70(heat) armor. Which seems like a no-brainer when comparing the practical combat effects of the skin implants.

On the other hand... -1 beauty is a permanent -20 social opinion and -2 is -40 so... maybe settling for the considerably less defensive Toughskin might be worthwhile for someone that's mentally fragile.
The last thing some colonists need is more social fights and mood penalties from being insulted

[carbon]

...x0.75 is convenient it's not super accurate.

I am aware how armor works, but I was simplifying for the sake of brevity. If anything the specifics of armor make the skin hardening even worse. A constant 5% damage reduction is at least something you can count on, whereas armor that only really works 5% of the time, is as good as useless.

The armor penetration of the incendiary launcher I checked was 0%. I would assume the same applies to all or at least most fire.

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....you can still move faster than a standard pawn with a single bionic leg and toughskin (107%).

Very true. I'd guess you could even get away with just a bionic heart to compensate and stay at or above 100%.

But that's kind of missing the point in a way. Speed isn't really binary. Every 1% has real gameplay impacts. A 107% speed pawn can outrun a melee raider, but can they outrun the manhunting cougar that's on their tale? Can they do that at night? Can they run fast enough to rescue a friendly with 2 hours until bleed out? How many fewer things do they get done in a day compared to a unencumbered 112% speed pawn? That 5, 10, or 15% speed you're losing is still being lost and felt in some way regardless of what else you do to the pawn.

Also, having to sink 2 or more high priced parts into a pawn just to get them back to 'normal' is itself an added cost and an argument against the relative utility of the implants.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm quite confident the devs will make them worthwhile once they get the time for a balance patch. I just don't think we're there yet with the skin augments.

[Boboid]

I am aware how armor works, but I was simplifying for the sake of brevity. If anything the specifics of armor make the skin hardening even worse. A constant 5% damage reduction is at least something you can count on, whereas armor that only really works 5% of the time, is as good as useless.

I have to disagree with you there. As I mentioned breakpoints are vitally important when considering the effects of armor.
Most weapons do considerably more than 10 damage per shot and as a result a consistent 5% mitigation would do little to nothing to reduce the number of shots required to destroy a significant number of body parts.
5% mitigation does literally nothing to prevent a Charge Lance removing a Hand or Foot for example. Or an assault rifle removing a finger.
Whereas a 2.5% chance to deflect and a 2.5% chance to mitigate by 50% actually results in weapons like the Bolt Action Rifle only doing 9 damage.. leaving the most fragile body parts ( Which have 10 health ) intact.

100% of limbs(30) with 5% mitigation are removed by Doomsday Rockets (50 damage x0.95)
95% of limbs with 5% armor after AP is deducted are removed by Doomsday rockets.

That's not to say that 5% mitigation is useless, if you're shot in the arm with a charge lance then that 5% always saves the limb.

So again, breakpoints matter and glossing over the way that armor works isn't actually a good idea when trying to determine the usefulness of armor.

Speed isn't really binary. Every 1% has real gameplay impacts. A 107% speed pawn can outrun a melee raider, but can they outrun the manhunting cougar that's on their tale? Can they do that at night? Can they run fast enough to rescue a friendly with 2 hours until bleed out? How many fewer things do they get done in a day compared to a unencumbered 112% speed pawn? That 5, 10, or 15% speed you're losing is still being lost and felt in some way regardless of what else you do to the pawn.

This actually is a great example of how breakpoints matter a lot. Being able to out-run an enemy -particularly a melee enemy - actually is binary however. Whether or not X speed is desirable for general combat will come down to a series of binary comparisons.

In general while I agree that movement speed loss shouldn't be ignored and it is important for a number of tasks, it's not the only determining factor for how many tasks can be completed, and it can be almost irrelevant for many such as crafting, cooking, medicine, mining, ect. Lots of tasks require very little movement.. and that movement can typically be minimized by an individual by outsourcing hauling to more specialized pawns.

Also, having to sink 2 or more high priced parts into a pawn just to get them back to 'normal' is itself an added cost and an argument against the relative utility of the implants.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm quite confident the devs will make them worthwhile once they get the time for a balance patch. I just don't think we're there yet with the skin augments.

/shrug All forms of practical armor slow down colonists and when you compare the relative protection of flak equipment, marine equipment, cataphract equipment, and skin implants.. they all seem reasonably well balanced against one another.
A Flak Vest for example slows down a pawn by ~2.6%
As does a Flak Jacket, and Flak Pants.
Plate/Marine armor is ~8.6%
Cataphract 17%

The implants seem about in line with these given that they're not mutually exclusive with them.
They're expensive.. but they're also providing strict power increases in specific areas with the standard associated downsides.
The fact that you don't think they're strict bonuses for the aforementioned reasons -I'd say- is indicative of a well balanced mechanic. Much like the Planting/Mining arms.

Edit: I missed you mentioning that Incendiary Launchers have 0% AP the first time through so I went and checked - Yep you're right they have 0% AP. If you assume all heat damage works this way then Stoneskin is a comical amount of fire resistance. I can certainly think of a few uses for flame resistant fighters

[carbon]

100% of limbs(30) with 5% mitigation are removed by Doomsday Rockets (50 damage x0.95)
95% of limbs with 5% armor after AP is deducted are removed by Doomsday rockets.

Right. But think about it from the perspective of utility. Is a pawn that can survive a doomsday hit 5% of the time safe enough to use as bait for a doomday rocket and thereby potentially save someone or something else? I really don't think they are.

It's maybe a bit clearer if we up the armor to 50%.

A pawn with 50% constant damage reduction hit by a doomsday dies 0% of the time. (Always hurt, but always alive)
vs.
A pawn that deflects all damage 50% of the time hit by a doomsday dies 50% of the time. (Coin flip if dead)

If I know, with mathematical certainty, that I can survive a particular encounter, I can play a lot more aggressively and dispatch the enemy a lot sooner than if I have to hold back for fear of a bad coin flip.

As someone who has played a lot of X-com over the years, being able to do guaranteed damage or be 100% sure you'll live through a hit has HUGE utility over trusting your fate to RNG. RNGesus is a cruel and fickle god and should never be trusted on the battlefield given an alternative.

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Whether or not X speed is desirable for general combat will come down to a series of binary comparisons.

A series of different binary encounters, is a spectrum. Some raiders have peg legs. Some have go-juice. Some are made of metal. Moving 1% faster always puts you at an increasing advantage over a larger share of that pool of potential encounters.

Even in the case of one particular raider that moves at exactly 100% speed, higher speed, still gives increased utility. 101% speed can stay just ahead of them. 120% speed can occasionally stop and shoot (no external damage source needed to defeat). 150% speed can stop and kill their enemy in time to save an ally.

At no point does 1% additional speed ever really become useless, which is what saying its binary (yes or no) implies.

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The fact that you don't think they're strict bonuses for the aforementioned reasons -I'd say- is indicative of a well balanced mechanic.

The issue is not that I can't see myself using Toughskin Gland in every scenario, the issue is that I can never envision a scenario where I would willingly trade 5% speed for a 'Lose 19 fingers, keep 1 FREE!!' sort of deal.

If a pawn wandered into my camp with a Toughskin Gland already installed, I honestly think I would uninstall it (assuming you can) and sell off the part. There's much better stuff to be bought with that silver.

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Speed is just such a valuable commodity to me, especially for combat. Maybe it's because I haven't used killboxes in years. I don't even use flak jackets or flak pants, they're just heavy versions of hyperweave / thrumbofur / devilstrand clothing. (Flak vests are useful since they don't compete with any clothing and reliably can stop lethal hits)

I do appreciate you're input and thoughtful arguments, Boboid, but I remain unconvinced my initial concerns were misplaced.

[carbon]

I can certainly think of a few uses for flame resistant fighters

Way back when, camelhair used to be -super- great for this, as well as an all around great clothing material. I think it even had pretty high Sharp armor if I'm not mistaken. It's why I originally titled myself a 'Camelhair Enthusiast' way back when, because I didn't think enough folks appreciated being nearly inferno cannon-proof while also being great insulation.

Sadly, camelhair has seen its share of nerfs since then, but the nostalgia remains.

[carbon]

One thing I just noticed that may be relevant to the original 'separate layer versus additive armor bonus' question is that clothes such as pants, t-shirts and button downs, are described as occupying the "Skin" layer.

I could have sworn the name for their layer used to be "Inner", but having just double checked 1.0, I see that I'm mistaken.

It does still add a bit more credibility to the idea that the implants are additive with at least some clothes/armor.

I think I'm just going to start stabbing and shooting pawns for the sake of !!Science!! and get a clearer answer.

[carbon]

Okay, I did live fire testing on a pawn repeatedly and I'm reasonably confident that the skin implant modifiers are a totally separate layer from "Skin" layer clothing. So that at least answers the question of: "how does it work?"

Details:

Test #1
Target has Toughskin Implant (Sharp armor - 20%) and a Synthread T-shirt or Button down (Sharp armor 18%)
Shooter has Legendary Autopistol (Sharp penetration - 22%)

Separate layers should show total penetration, additive armor should show 16% armor rate (20 + 18 - 22 = 16).

I never once witnessed a single deflection or blunting of the damage to indicate anything other than total penetration. Strongly suggests two separate armor layers.

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Test #2
Target has Toughskin Implant (Sharp armor - 20%)
Shooter has Poor Autopistol (Sharp penetration - 15%)

Should expect to see a 5% armor rate if working properly.

I did see one apparent bruising to the leg, but didn't actually see a full deflection before giving up.

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Test #3
Target has Toughskin Implant (Sharp armor - 20%)
Shooter has Awful Machine Pistol (Sharp penetration - 8%)

Should expect to see a 12% armor rate if working properly.

Took me a bit more patience, but I did eventually witness a full deflection off of a naked pawn.

[Boboid]

So the skin implants function identically to any other source of armor. Glad that's cleared up.
Judging by the debug info in the health tab for IsSkinCovered the implants cover everything you'd assume which is to say everything external except the eyes.

I decided to give the implants a dedicated whirl in my 2nd game(Which took some doing since getting enough exotic traders to buy a specific implant techprint can be tedious) and I'm pretty happy with them and my previous assessment in practice.

The Armor/Stoneskin implants do exactly as well as I'd anticipated, adding a useful layer of defense to dedicated combat pawns. Particularly in melee combat where the Stoneskin in particular adds a significant amount of Blunt armor which is particularly useful for fighting mechanoids.
The speed loss is noticeable but.. with the new psychic abilities making it considerably easier to close distance alongside smoke and other forms of utility I was quite happy overall.

The horrible disfigurement was barely noticeable. Much like the traits that function similarly - They're minor force multipliers but under most circumstances not enough in of themselves to cause an issue. They only affect pawns opinions of one another rather than things like social chat impact or trade negotiation directly.

One thing to note is that Bionic limbs and the like are not skin covered and I assume therefore aren't protected by the implants. This is a mild annoyance but.. bionic limbs are pretty tough anyway and damage to them doesn't contribute to Pain so doesn't down pawns indirectly. The minor anti-synergy wasn't enough to dissuade me
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With all that said the Toughskin implant is still the odd one out. It's the cheapest of the bunch but I'll admit that even at that it's pretty low priority for resource/silver allocation.
If I got one from a quest I'd install it, I wouldn't craft one though, and I'd prefer to buy armor/stone-skin if given the choice.

I'm pretty happy with them, but I have no problems with specialization.
I can certainly understand the desire to maintain speed in which case.. well the skin implants aren't for that but at least you've got access to Recon armor now on the bright side


Edit: By the way - Farming Mech Assemblers that produce either Pikeman or Lancers is a rather excellent way to obtain components/plasteel/steel and to train melee skill. They're not dangerous in small numbers and when scheduled. Really took the edge off my implant testing

[mooguy]

I agree with Carbon, that the skins need a buff or modification of some sort.

I suggest the armor can either slightly increase the total outer/or inner layer value, or increase the hitpoints of the outer organs.

Having a movement penalty, an ugly mood penalty and all over 1000 market value is pretty intense and to me also far outweighs the minor protection gains. People using them at that stage of the game will be likely facing ongoing intensive damage anyway.

[carbon]

I don't know that I'm arguing that all of them need a buff. I personally haven't looked that closely at Armorskin or Stoneskin. I think my main argument, if any, would be to either rid Toughskin of the movement penalty so its just really weak but fast -or- buff its blunt and sharp by 5 to 10 points so it might actually do something against light arms, but nothing against serious stuff.

I think I could be convinced Stoneskin would be worth it for a pawn intended to bait out inferno cannon shots, which seem to be pretty common with all the mech clusters.

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I was also thinking that one of the side-effects of the movement debuff is that melee loses dodge chance %. That means for high penetration weapons like the monosword, you'll actually be taking more damage with something like Stoneskin than without it.

[Boboid]

A pawn with 20 melee skill loses 5% dodge chance (30->25%) when going from 100% -> 85% moving. Not exactly a fiasco even under the worst circumstances.

I suppose technically it would be marginally worse vs a monosword in particular.. but I don't even think I've seen an enemy wielding one and there's plenty of reasons not to melee an enemy with a monosword that aren't "I happen to have stoneskin implanted". It's a pretty edge case.

The more I play with armor/stoneskin the happier I am with them frankly.

As for toughskin.. eh.
I'm fine with its existence if only as something that enemies can spawn with.
It's okay for it to be suboptimal for the player to use it. (though I'd still argue that it's worth using, merely that it's worse than the other types).
Just throw it in the same bucket as the Autopistol and LMG