The problem with raids and defense

[TrashMan]

Is that it doesn't really make sense, hence why killboxes are necessary.

Pawns can destroy granite walls with bare fists or handguns (though the Ai rarely does that).
Mountains can be mined with bare hands.
Defensive turrets are useless garbage.
You have no proper defensive walls/bunkers/embrasures.
The enemy has no proper tools and attack strategies.

The way things currently work is the root of all the problems.

Now imagine if walls (and armor) acted like they should - impervious to fists and most melee weapons. You'd have sappers in every raid. Proper siege weapons and equipment. Raid AI that isn't braindead (no bee-lining for the trapped door, use of smoke, suppressive fire, making their own entrances, etc..).

Raiders may come with combat shields, RPG's, even APCs or tanks (that would be invulnerable to small arms fire), requireing specialized weaponry to deal with. The upside is that you can get away with smaller raids being a much bigger threat.
The downside is that you're (almost) boned without proper defenses and equipment. Things like APC's carry troops to your base, so they by themselves wouldn't be a threat.
The AI should also be smart enough so that you cannot simply down a pawn with sapping/anti-armor equipment and call it a day - other raiders should pick up the critical gear.

[Skynert]

Just use mods. They solve 3/4 of your problems. I never make killboxes.

[ShadowKatt]

Sound like the complaint is sappers more than anything, and I'll agree that sappers are the worst especially since starting mid-game that's all you're going to see. Players build a killbox because it requires a concerted defense to save your base from nearly any raid. Tribals will send upwards of triple your colonist population to murder you, pirates will bring rockets that will outrange everything but your sniper rifles, and the unions will come with heavy armor that will face-tank all but charge weapons. With a killbox you can meet them on a more or less even field. They will have numbers/ordinance/armor, and you have the home field advantage. Without the killboxes everything is slanted heavily against you. Sapper raids are all of the above with the addition that they will also ignore your defenses and just dig in whereever they feel like it, forcing you to face off against triple your number, or rockets, or armored tanks anywhere in your base that THEY choose now. Your common room, your hospital,  your freezer, anywhere that tilts the already slanted odds even further against you.

Now, sapper raids usually have a lead sapper, usually whoever is carrying the frag grenades or the highest mining stat. That's not a guarantee though. If ANY raid decides it's easier to go through your walls then suddenly they're a one man demolition crew. And got help you if it's multiple parties from different directions, your base is history. Even mechanoids for some reason will decide to bypass all your colonists instead to dig through the walls on the other side of your colony forcing you to chase them down or wait and engage them inside. That goes fairly well when it's a centipede with inferno cannons.

I've mentioned this before but the game doesn't feel like it has hurdles and challenges to overcome and surpass. It feels like a game of chess, move and countermove. Whatever you do, it feels like the AI is looking for your weakest point to exploit. That's a fantastic trait in a competetive setting, but not in a simulation setting. it turns the conflict from being man vs enviroment, to borrow the literary trope, to man vs man. And if I wanted to play Starcraft I'd go play Starcraft. This is Rimworld. it's my ant farm with spaceships and guns.

That being said, is there a mod for Protoss? Now i kinda want some starcraft flavor in my rimworld...

[SpaceDorf]

Sorry no Protoss, but I could offer some Zerg

[gCvdA]

This.
killboxes arms race is only the result of the stupid raid design,
and no patches that try to limit killbox effectiveness will make the game better until raids are fixed.

[ShadowKatt]

It's rare you have a picture to encapsulate everything in a single image, but here we go. I've gone through and done my best to fortify my base. Double stone walls with overlapping turret fields. This is the LAST place anyone not friendly should want to be. There is only one way in or out of the base, a single wooden door that leads into the heart of the base with some deadfall traps and sandbags. Despite the fact that it is NOT a sapping raid, the first thing they do is start sapping. There are 11 raiders. I have 5 colonists. One of them is a pacifist. This is MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. So now I have to go out and get them before they breach my base all over the place and set uncontrollable fires. The literal hours I have spent trying to fortify my base are absolutely wasted. WHy is this still happening.

[8roads]

These days I simply bribe as many factions as i can.
Pay taxes to whom taxes are to be paid.
Be afraid of those you should fear.
Respect those you should respect.
Yes i am poor. No i don't worry about raids.

[TrashMan]

Players build a killbox because it requires a concerted defense to save your base from nearly any raid.

Players build a killbox because a regular defense (the kind of you would see in RL) simply doesn't work well in vanilla.

and also because the AI is dumb and will bee-line for the door, rather than insist on making its own entrance, just in case. Or split, send part of the raid to the door, have other tunnel trough, even if it takes long.
If they can just wait and wander aimlessly for a day before attacking, they can dig.


Of course, if you fix AI to plan assault better and break walls, then the player is boned because walls are like tissue paper, so that would require fixing too. But if walls/stone becomes impervious to most weapons, then that will need to be taken into consideration.

Pickaxes, drill and explosive charages, cannons - those should be a requirement ot break walls AND dig stone. No easy/early mountain bases without tools.

[ShadowKatt]

These days I simply bribe as many factions as i can.
Pay taxes to whom taxes are to be paid.
Be afraid of those you should fear.
Respect those you should respect.
Yes i am poor. No i don't worry about raids.

My colony can't even feed itself. We don't even have herbal medicine. The map is so poor we can't set foot outside without being hunted by the stray, starving predators that wander in.

I can't bribe other factions with pity.

[TrashMan]

It's rare you have a picture to encapsulate everything in a single image, but here we go. I've gone through and done my best to fortify my base. Double stone walls with overlapping turret fields. This is the LAST place anyone not friendly should want to be. There is only one way in or out of the base, a single wooden door that leads into the heart of the base with some deadfall traps and sandbags. Despite the fact that it is NOT a sapping raid, the first thing they do is start sapping. There are 11 raiders. I have 5 colonists. One of them is a pacifist. This is MEDIUM DIFFICULTY. So now I have to go out and get them before they breach my base all over the place and set uncontrollable fires. The literal hours I have spent trying to fortify my base are absolutely wasted. WHy is this still happening.

This is why embrasures are necessary. Normally you'd be able to build towers, but no Z-levels. Tough there are work-around, like buildable bunkers that your colonists can enter.

When I build my bases in the open, I build several small bunkers (small rooms with embrasure walls facing outwards, normal wall inwards and one door inwards) spaced evenly around my colony. That is my 1st priority. Normal walls can come later.
With that in place, no matter from where the enemy comes, I have a solid defensive position (or 2 or 3. The more you have, the better, as you get overlap).

The counter to that in RL are siege tactics (artillery, APC's, underground tunneling, air drops).

[8roads]

These days I simply bribe as many factions as i can.
Pay taxes to whom taxes are to be paid.
Be afraid of those you should fear.
Respect those you should respect.
Yes i am poor. No i don't worry about raids.

My colony can't even feed itself. We don't even have herbal medicine. The map is so poor we can't set foot outside without being hunted by the stray, starving predators that wander in.

I can't bribe other factions with pity.

...but why would anyone want to raid you?

[TrashMan]

My colony can't even feed itself. We don't even have herbal medicine. The map is so poor we can't set foot outside without being hunted by the stray, starving predators that wander in.

I can't bribe other factions with pity.

...but why would anyone want to raid you?

Because it makes for an engaging story and drama?

[Breadbox]

I'm not entirely what's the arguement the Op is trying to make. First, there's complaint about how killboxes are necessary and sappers, but sappers try its best to evade ur killbox as to force a mobile defence so what's the issue here?

I actually don't mind sappers or the strength of the raid at all, you can't demolish a wall with fist but neither could you build one with 1 guy in a few hours.

I just like a smarter AI that doesn't trickle their raiders in one by one or raid with more variety of strategies to overcome ur killbox.

[8roads]

My colony can't even feed itself. We don't even have herbal medicine. The map is so poor we can't set foot outside without being hunted by the stray, starving predators that wander in.

I can't bribe other factions with pity.

...but why would anyone want to raid you?

Because it makes for an engaging story and drama?

you mean dramatic end of an engaging story?

[B@R5uk]

Now I see a pattern:

{Some_User_Name}: {Some_Problem_Description}
TrashMan: Think about story! Think about drama!