RE-thinking raids

Started by TrashMan, October 15, 2020, 07:28:46 AM

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TrashMan

The raids and the mechanics behind them, as well as the world factions and luckluster, to say the least.

Post ideas here for how to improve raids and factions:
Here are some good ideas I ran into:

Quote>why the fuck does the game make you build killboxes so desperately

Because the ai is very focused on killing your colonists and "ending your save file" instead of being reasonable bandits and raiders and raids are predictably random.

""""Raids""""" can instantly improve by changing how raiders work.

1) raiders should want different things, which they usually attempt to obtain by sounding threatening (could be a bluff)

example: raiders hear you have a stash of glitterworld meds and want it to cure their leader's wife's son, if you accept they will visit your colony peacefully to retrieve it. if not they will send a massive force of 60 men (while your colony wealth is still low) to claim it by force. they claim to have explosives and are fully armed.

with good rng: if you say no, they show up but only like 10 dudes armed with small guns
bad rng: they actually do come with 60 dudes armed to the teeth

2) raiders should offer quests as well, demanding quests in order to keep your colony safe (from them)

example: deliver silver (or whatever) to this nearby location and come alone, bringing another pawn will result in a shootout

3) raiders will use the relationship points better. -100 is basically big raids trying to end all of your lives, you have to actually really try to get them to this point though. this should come with a rework of the relationship point system


tl;dr: the game is shallow because tynan made the game shallow. this is why even tiny mods thrive extremely well

Quote
>1) raiders should want different things
This would be a huge improvement over current raider AI, where raiders are nihilist retards who just want to smash and burn everything for no apparent reason.
>2) raiders should offer quests as well, demanding quests in order to keep your colony safe (from them)
This is historically how raider-type cultures have operated. The Mongols, for example, gave their targets an option to become a tributary and give the Mongols what they wanted instead of just massacring all of them right off the bat. The Mongols wouldn't have been able to conquer so much land if they murdered all of their potential subjects like a bunch of retards.
>3) raiders will use the relationship points better. -100 is basically big raids trying to end all of your lives, you have to actually really try to get them to this point though. this should come with a rework of the relationship point system
You mean there should be a difference between -10 (mild dislike) and -100 (mortal enemies)? I don't get it. Those two things are the same.

Quoteto add, at +100 relationship with raiders, they will treat you better and trade instead of demand things from you, and invite you to raid with them as well, something probably unique to the currently permahostile raider faction.

but yeah the relationship system in rimworld is so unfinished and simple and not a single mod has been made around that. it could be a very nice thing, managing neighboring relationships instead of just finally researching drop pods and showering them with gifts to maintain +100


Aside from that: faction towns/bases having a few variables that track their development (population, defenses, wealth) and that also determine their actions (they might act differently depending on their population/defenses. You defeating a raid reduces the pop of the town that sent it, and it recovers over time, etc..)

Alenerel

Quotebad rng: they actually do come with 60 dudes armed to the teeth

Altho I agree that the AI doesnt make sense, this is just game ending. I dont think players appreciate that at any given moment for any given reason your game might just end, just because.

AileTheAlien

It might also help to just have raiders try things besides fighting first, that they normally only do when all of your guys are dead or bleeding. Namely, capturing people and stealing your stuff. They will try and steal things if all your pawns are across the map and you have no walls, but otherwise they always fight you to the death first.

TrashMan

Quote from: Alenerel on October 15, 2020, 08:07:37 AM
Quotebad rng: they actually do come with 60 dudes armed to the teeth

Altho I agree that the AI doesnt make sense, this is just game ending. I dont think players appreciate that at any given moment for any given reason your game might just end, just because.

It's used as an example. Replace 60 with reasonably appropriate threat level number. Basically the best and worst case scenario are variable and change to (roughly) match player strength.

Canute

Well 60 vs how many ?
You know at the medivial era you need to bring 10 times so many troops against a city then they got to win the battle for sure.
Basicly rimworld isn't that different, the AI is weak tactican, most raiders got crappy equipment, while your pawn's better equipment and are prepared (hopefully).
And you still can lower the difficult of the storyteller anytime during gameplay.

Butter equiped raiders mosttimes just give your colony better equipment afterwards, that is my expierence.
Did you ever used GlitterTech mod, when 1-2 commando's attack your colony and wipe you easiely if you arn't prepared against them.
But if you survive and could aquire some of these weapons, 1-2 pawn could fight down a tribal attack.

kclace

I don't even think kill boxes are all that great of a defensive tactic. My best bases involve two layers of walls so that your pawns are completely blocked off from the raiders. This will cause the raiders to scatter far and wide, as they start chipping away at random bits of wall. This enables your pawns to step outside and swarm the raiders one by one. I think the raids are great. Kill boxes are just one of your options!

TrashMan

Quote from: Canute on October 21, 2020, 05:37:38 AM
Well 60 vs how many ?
You know at the medivial era you need to bring 10 times so many troops against a city then they got to win the battle for sure.
Basicly rimworld isn't that different, the AI is weak tactican, most raiders got crappy equipment, while your pawn's better equipment and are prepared (hopefully).
And you still can lower the difficult of the storyteller anytime during gameplay.

Butter equiped raiders mosttimes just give your colony better equipment afterwards, that is my expierence.
Did you ever used GlitterTech mod, when 1-2 commando's attack your colony and wipe you easiely if you arn't prepared against them.
But if you survive and could aquire some of these weapons, 1-2 pawn could fight down a tribal attack.

It's not about the difficult per say - ti can always be tweaked/changed.
It's about the mechanic. The atmosphere. The gameplay.

Your interactions with the faction are bare-bones at best. Their raiding follow no sensible logic. Their resources are limitless. Their armirs just teleport to your location.

Personally, I cannot play anymore without Preemtive Strike, as such a mechanic should be standard. Allowing a player to be proactive.

More sensible raid and faction behaviors woudl greatly improve immersion and gameplay.
You beat a big raid - now the enemy colony that sent the raid has a drop in it's population (people) and defense (turrets/defenses + people). It's wealth may have also been affected, depending on what they sent on that raid.
Now the AI has some thinking to do. Do they try to send a revenge raid and risk loosing even more or do they wait to regain some strength? Them being wealthy but weakened might invite a raid from other enemies (actual faction interactions???? Shocking, I know), and if it hits while their raiding force is out, their already weakened defenses may not hold. Did they do enough damage to you inthe first raid to think a immediate second raid is wise? Or do they wait to gather a greater force (as in, they cannot send a stronger raid than they have capacity for)?

This actually requires some AI logic to be written to handle this, and since Ty is big on "story generator" and just throwing RNG events, rather than actual cause-and-consequence and connected systems/events living world implementation, I doubt he would ever do this, but one can dream.

Prologue

#7
I think there is room for improvement for sure when it comes to raids. And I do feel like I'm forced by the game to make some kind of kill box or chokepoint to leverage the odds of surviving long-term.

One of the mods I use these days is "Enemy self preservation" (I put it at 45%) so that the raiders gain back some self respect and stop acting like a suicide squad. This helps create a bit more realistic feeling when defending against large numbers of enemy's.

But I agree that there could be done a bit more to shift from "AI that only wants your colony dead feeling" to "enjoyable and reasonable story enabling event".

I think when you view raids from a story perspective it becomes a lot more clear what could be changed. Currently there is only one raid mode and that is "fight till dead mentality". But as pointed out by some earlier posts in the tread, raiders are just people what are desperate to get some money so they can survive.

Having a chance for demands / negotiations to occur before the start of a raid may already do a lot to move into the "enjoyable and reasonable story enabling event" direction. Giving both sides a chance to use communication (based on social skills) to demand ransom / intimidate / solve the issue through diplomacy.

Secondly I think an enemy self preservation function should be added to the game, modding is always a workaround, but why mod if it could be canon?

There should also be a (more clear) objective for the raiders. Perhaps they want some minimum value of loot, kidnap a pawn or get their hands on a specific item. I'm pretty sure currently raiders will continue plundering your base until they flee due to severe losses (correct me if I'm wrong).

Optionally there could be a type of raid where the raiders approach peacefully, as if they are traders, and than turn on you once they are inside your 'secure walls', like the trojan horse.

I think having an option to pay for security in some way could be interesting, perhaps add a chance you get 'scammed' and the bandits attack even after you did your payment.

Also optional is to make the raider mentality more depended on the relation you have with their faction. For example, when you have -100 relation, they may act more suicidal, and when it is only -10 they rather just take some amount of loot and run for it.

Edit: One thing I want to add, perhaps having the option for the raiders to surrender is a good alternative way to end a raid.