Cooking for the Canivores

[Mojito000]

Hey all

Concerning cooking for the Carnivores/Rancher. I had a short conversation in a other thread and figured i better start a new thread. https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=54823.0

Basically i think there is a need for carnivore simple meal.

Early game i had a hard time getting enough meat. Not enough to hunt, not enough grass/hay for ranching.

I tried to grow some potatoes to stretch out the meat a bit. Problem is, they mostly made either meat or vegetable meals.
I do now understand that apparently fruits are handeld differently than vegetables. Ok. But if they cook a 100% berry meal that will probably still not be good for the canivores right?
I do not see a way of making sure my simple meals are allways containing some meat. Or am i missing something?
And the fine canivore meals take 3 instead of 2 ingredients. So that is not helping if you are low on meat.

Any thoughts? Or am i missing something?

[zgrssd]

I think it is important to mention that the rules for meal ingredients have changed.
Basic Meal needs 0.5 Nutrient in for 0.9 out.
untyped fine is 0.25 vegetarian, 0.25 any. (which I read as 0.5 vegetarian is fine).
Vegetarian fine is 0.75 vegetarian
Carnivore fine is 0.75 meat

So the normal fine meal is not giving you worse nutrient efficiency - the only change is need 8 instead of 5 worktime - but the typed ones are.
However the typed meals need 0.75 Nutrients of meat and vegetables respectively, at the same 0.9 or 1.0 yield.


I would say we should have Carnivore and Vegetarian variants of Simple Meals, Survival Meals and Nutrient Paste Meals.
There is one suggestion for at least the survival one:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=54608.0

[Mirador]

Hello!

Actually, fine meal require the same amount of nutrition as a simple meal. The only difference is you need both vegetable and meat in it.

So, if you gather some berries/aguave fruit, then kill a few animals. You will be able to make twice as many meals with fine meal recipe for a carnivore if you are low on meat than if you only did simple meal with 100% meat.

You are right, if you do 100% berries/aguave meal, you will get the mood debuff.

Otherwise, if you really want to use meat only in your simple meal, you can simple modify the bill and restrict ingredient so only meat are accepted.

I never use the carnivore recipe unless I have a ton of meat on hand.

UPDATE: I tested to see if sowing rice mood debuff was that bad at the begining and actually, it don't seem to work at all. I got no debuff from sowing rice as a rancher ideology.

[Mojito000]

@zgrssd

I think you are mentioning a mechanic i do not understand... What is the Nutrition value?
All i know is i use either 2 or 3 Ingredients and i get one meal out of it.

But i am happy to learn!

@Mirador

That is exactly what i wanted to do. Stretch the meat with some veggies. Except i can not controll if there is meat, veggies, or only veggies in the meal.
With the result that i got mostly meat only and a couple potato meals.. no mixed ones.

[Mirador]

I will try to explain nutrition value. Each unit of meat or vegetable is usually worth 0.05 nutrition
To make a simple meal, you need 0.5 nutrition, so 10 units of meat or vegetable. The simple meal itself is worth 0.9 nutrition.

The pawn food need go from 0 to 1 nutrition. So a simple meal will very likely completly feed a pawn. However, some animal have different food need, for exemple, a labrador retriever have 0.75 food need bar, so it usually mean that it will 'waste' some food if he eat one of your meal. That why you are better to give kibble to such animal.

Fine meal and pemmican always have 50% meat and 50% vegetable. So there is nothing to control here.

For simple Meat, you have to restrict your bill to 100% meat. Otherwise, your cook can make use vegatable to make them, which will then give you a mood debuff as a rancher ideology because of the meat eating requirement precept.

[zgrssd]

@zgrssd

I think you are mentioning a mechanic i do not understand... What is the Nutrition value?
All i know is i use either 2 or 3 Ingredients and i get one meal out of it.

But i am happy to learn!

@Mirador

That is exactly what i wanted to do. Stretch the meat with some veggies. Except i can not controll if there is meat, veggies, or only veggies in the meal.
With the result that i got mostly meat only and a couple potato meals.. no mixed ones.

The raw material you turn into food have a nutrition value.
So does the finished meal.
Even unharvested plants and corpses have a nutrition value (in case a animal has to eat it from the ground, before you can harvest/butcher it).

Turning 0.5 nutrition worth of raw meat, vegetables, fruits, milk or whatever into a Meal worth 0.9 Nutrition, is almost doubling the amount of Nutrition you get from the same material. On top of no longer eating unsafe food.
Turning 0.5 nutrition worth of raw food into a fine meal worth 0.9 Nutrition, is still a good deal.

Turning 0.75 worth of Raw Meat or Vegetables into a Carnivore/Vegetarian Fine Meal is a much worse deal then that.

[Mojito000]

Very interesting, thanks!

My issue was slightly different. Since i need to feed them "some" meat, and i do not have enough to feed pure meat i try to stretch that with potatoes. Since i can not "force" them to add meat they often make pure meat and pure veggie simple meals. Which does not work.
And as you mentioned, fine meals are wasting even more food which is what i am lacking.

I can see a deliberate "challenge" in that. You need to get enough meat.OK.
But then why have a carnivore fine meal? It feels like a missing option to me.

Or i was hoping I was just missing something

[Mirador]

Actually, I think you misunderstand us. Fine meal is not wasting more food. Fine meal use the same amount of nutrition as simple meal. It just require to have 50% vegetable and 50% meat. That why you should use those instead of simple meal when you can. =o)

For exemple, a simple meal require 10 unit of meat OR 10 unit of vegetable, while a fine meal require 5 unit of meat AND 5 unit of vegetable. That how you make sure that every meal have meat without wasting it.

Carnivore meal will be useful later on when you have so many animal in your pen that you need to slaughter half of them to prevent your computer from crashing. LOL. Or after the slaughter of a large manhunter group, sure some have scaria rotting but not all. It can give a ton of meat. It can also be useful with insect meat from large infestation.. Even if your ideology have inesct meat despised, the bonus you receive from fine/lavish meal will exceeded the mood debuff from eating insect.

[zgrssd]

Actually, I think you misunderstand us. Fine meal is not wasting more food. Fine meal use the same amount of nutrition as simple meal. It just require to have 50% vegetable and 50% meat. That why you should use those instead of simple meal when you can. =o)

For exemple, a simple meal require 10 unit of meat OR 10 unit of vegetable, while a fine meal require 5 unit of meat AND 5 unit of vegetable. That how you make sure that every meal have meat without wasting it.

Carnivore meal will be useful later on when you have so many animal in your pen that you need to slaughter half of them to prevent your computer from crashing. LOL. Or after the slaughter of a large manhunter group, sure some have scaria rotting but not all. It can give a ton of meat. It can also be useful with insect meat from large infestation.. Even if your ideology have inesct meat despised, the bonus you receive from fine/lavish meal will exceeded the mood debuff from eating insect.

I think you do not understand fully.

the Generic Fine Meal does not have worse Nutrition efficiency
the Carnivore/Vegetarian variants do have worse Nutrition efficiency.

@Mojito000
If you want to feed them some meat but want to stretch it with Vegetable or Fruits, just make Pemmican.
It is long lasting, has a 50/50 Meat/Vegetable split, same nutriet efficiency as Simple Meals.

As a Tribal, I usually have like 10-20 Simple Meals in Storage. Any more and they would just end up Spoiling to quick.
But my main production is pemmican.

[Mirador]

Sorry if my english is bad, it's not my native language.

That being say, I actually do understand what you mean, I was just replying to Mojito000.

As I say, I only use Carnivore variants when my storage in full because of manhunter or infestation event.

For me the best choice at the start for rancher are a few fine meal and everything else go in pemmican.

[Canute]

the Carnivore/Vegetarian variants do have worse Nutrition efficiency.

But some ideology forbid that your pawn's eat meat or can grow vegetables.
But these fine meals variants give you a mood bonus.
If you don't need the mood bonus stay with simple meal.

[Grubfist]

untyped fine is 0.25 vegetarian, 0.25 any. (which I read as 0.5 vegetarian is fine).

Important note: 0.5 vegetarian is NOT fine. The other .25 needs to be either meat or eggs/milk.
If it actually uses the wording "any" then that is poor wording, but what's happening is the "balanced" meals are more efficient, while the vegetarian/carnivore specialist ones are not as efficient. This is because fine meals were balanced by their NEED for both ingredients, so a version that DOESN'T need both ingredients is imbalanced by comparison, thus it is re-balanced by needing more of the one type. Kinda like how the packaged survival meals take a huge amount of nutrition - it's to pay for a different strength. For packaged meals, it's that they don't rot, for specialist fine meals, it's that you can get away with only one ingredient type while still having fine. Normally, one-ingredient meals are, by default, simple meals.

And on that note OP: Set a bill for simple meals, go into details, toggle off all non-meat ingredients. You should be able to easily toggle off the entire vegetarian ingredient category at once. The reason there's no "specialized" simple meals is because simple meals are already very efficient in exchange for not giving a mood buff (which fine meals do).

[Mojito000]

I guess i am starting to understand.

So the answer to my original question was probably Pemmican.
I allways assumed that gives a mood debuff too, but apparently not.

What i wanted to achieve where simple meal which are mixed. But i think that only happens when they do not have enough of one component and fill that up with a different one.

Thanks all

[Mirador]

I guess i am starting to understand.

So the answer to my original question was probably Pemmican.
I allways assumed that gives a mood debuff too, but apparently not.

What i wanted to achieve where simple meal which are mixed. But i think that only happens when they do not have enough of one component and fill that up with a different one.

Thanks all

Fine meal and Pemmican are alway 50% meat and 50% vegetable.
Fine meal have a better nutrition ratio (Same as simple meal) and give +5 mood bonus but last only 4 days while pemmican will last you over a year.
That why you usually use both of them.