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Author Topic: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition  (Read 1765 times)

Ouroboros

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Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« on: October 20, 2021, 05:34:37 PM »

Important disclaimer: Tynan stated that for legal reasons they can't view the idea forum. But I really think I have an idea he has to see because it's too good not to be implemented. An idea that would make Rimworld vastly better for everyone who enjoys it. So note that I officially denounce ownership of this idea for Rimworld when it comes to copyright, commercial use and any intellectual property laws and give Ludeon Studios full right of use. This might look silly to some, but this is in fact as a written statement, a LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT.

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A popular Rimworld content creator (not sure if I can name him?) answered a viewer on his stream. The question was (paraphrasing): "Is military conquest viable?". The answer was, also paraphrasing, that playing like that sounds fun in theory, but becomes a chore. A drawn out time sink. And since most enemy settlements are randomized small outposts they don't really pose that much of an actual challenge. 
 
Problem: Settlements are not challenging. World travel and time spent makes it a boring time sink.   

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So how can a military and conquest based victory condition be added, which is fun and engaging? That doesn't rely on "taking over the map"?

1) Add a Capital City for all factions. Though location is randomized, These Capital Cities themselves are not randomized, but handcrafted. To look like real aesthetically pleasing proper settlements depending on the faction and culture they represent with a logical and challenging layout. For example a rustic culture settlement could be a walled city, where you start at the gates. Having to fight through the residential district and up to the castle / village mansion or whatever government seat is there. Their faction leader and their elite guard ready.

2) Taking a Capital City from a faction, turns all their remaining non-capital faction settlements into neutral individual settlements, and gives you a victory point towards conquest victory condition. This way, you don't have to mindlessly attack every settlement on the map. 

3) However taking a faction's non-capital settlement. Vassalizing, razing or raiding it. Makes the capitol weaker. For example. Say that you are fighting the Shattered Empire. Taking one of their settlements out, may mean that their Capital loses 50% of their turrets. Another may cut their food supply so the Capital defenders starts from hungry to starvation. Taking out one settlement may cut reinforcements so that the defending capital is cut from 40 defenders to 30. Taking a settlement that has a comm station may prevent reinforcement drop-pods. A training facility may remove the faction leader's elite guard protecting him. For Shattered Empire specific, since they are mostly on the fleet, it could be an embassy instead. The High Stellarch arriving in a shuttle with elite troops. 

So taking out their settlements isn't pointless! And works as a self-enforced difficulty scale. Truly masochistic hardcore player? Straight for the Capital! Want to weaken them first? Take out strategic settlements. 

4) Taking out a faction gives a point towards military / conquest victory, but also reduces resting diplomacy with all factions. X points needed for victory.

5) There are lots more that can be done with this idea. Vassalizing settlements making them part of YOUR empire controlled by AI. Where you can for example order them to defend (may cancel high threat events), attack (attempt to take out targeted enemy faction), focus on trade (giving you better global sell and buy prices), military training etc. But this is more of an advanced idea.

6) Only the player being the aggressor can be boring. But at the same time, as the player you also have to deal with threats at home all the time of all types. So maybe have 1 more event possible with hostile factions per year. Where they attack you with their military. And if you take out a faction by taking their Capital, in 1-4 years at random, remnant loyalists of that faction may commit to a last ditch attempt to get revenge and take you out. These events can happen irregardless of other event timers. So you can be lucky or unluck with the timing. Or both at the same time. Say a cannibal tribe you took out, have their last stand patriots attack you just as mechs arrive.

I will end it here. But I'd really like people's thoughts on this. Maybe I'm not seeing the issues that may arrive, but I truly think this approach would make a militaristic and conquest based playstyle extremely fun and enjoyable. It removes the boring problem of "attack these 100 settlements to win", instead focusing on priority targets - faction capitals. With strategy involved as to weakening them first or not by taking out some other settlements of theirs. 
 
Thoughts?
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MissFox

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 11:14:32 PM »

Wow, this is a really well thought out idea.

I totally understand what youre saying about having an engaging conquest type victory, I love the idea that small settlements feed into defensive power of larger ones and I can see how it could make for some interesting gameplay.

The question is though, would a grand strategy element ultimately detract from the core focus of what rimworld is about; the colonists.

Strategy games tend to rely on millitary power so often the strongest units in large quantities are the most appealing thing to work towards, but Rimworld is about the stories, trials and victories of individuals more than their collective civilization.

Say that...

10 well armed, well equipped cataphract warriors attack an enemy settlement to deny the factions capitol city defense turrets. The unit arrives back at base having taken a loss but re-suppies and moves on to the next settlement...

Or

Jesse, George and David "Worm" Smith leave the safety of their base to destroy an enemy raider outpost. A local shaman is fed up of raiders stealing their chickens and offered them a flatscreen TV in return. Worm takes an unfortunate hit from a shotgun to the torso, Jesse does what she can to save worm but he bleeds out  at the last moment before she can get him stabilised...

Worm's body is returned to the colony and laid to rest in the tomb. The TV looks great in the Rec room but always serves as a reminder that it cost the life of a colonist to acquire.

So...

More numbers may make for more interesting battles but characters loose their individually when massed together.

I could see this working with a bit of tweaking...

The colony is contacted by an interstellar civilization who is keen to add this plannet to their empire. They ask you to start attacking local settlements so that supply lines to key defence points around the planet are disrupted. Once this is achieved the empire will be able to invade and has promised the colony amnsity and full citizenships for their help.

I have no idea if any of what I said makes any sense at all but either way this is a fascinating point of discussion.

Edit: I'm sure you're aware of the points about colonists in this but I wanted to write it for the sake of others who may not be so knowledgeable about the design philosophy of the game.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 07:54:15 AM by MissFox »
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aBadNickname

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 11:12:33 PM »

I strongly disagree with the idea that grand strategy or civilization building would detract from building a good story. In history and fictions, there are many moments where a capable commander rises to lead a nation and sometimes dies fighting a critical battle or common soldiers distinguishing themselves in the heat of the battle and recognized as champions of the army. It is unnecessary to know in detail every single soldier or civilian because they are background characters and yet without them, the story lacks impact. For example imagine what Caesar's gallic war would be if it is just a dozen pawns going around raiding villages and compare that to a 100 vs 400 battle where u have to set up ballistas, manage supply lines, and construct walls in the middle of nowhere in order to even the odds. Besides with a more high-population civilization-building approach, it is possible to maybe build a more living and breathing world with seaport that produce salt/fish and manage overseas trading (maybe with vehicle mod someday), slave mines that generate valuable metals and stones for buildings and defenses, and towns with shops/taverns (with hospitality mod) that collects silver to fund a mercanary army to repel an invasion. All of this would provide a excellent backdrop for a good story. The game in the current state consists mostly of defending your base all day and attacking random-generated bases all with a few pawns and any attempt to expand outside that is only rewarded with low fps. I feel that limiting the number of pawns seriously hampers the true potential of Rimworld as a story generator and Tynan needs to look in a new direction.
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Stellan72

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2021, 11:55:16 PM »

I also think this is really cool. fwiw.
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mooguy

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2021, 07:37:04 PM »

I also support content expanding in this direction.

I am more for it being regional in scale as a map-wide conquest might be a slog.

Thinking of  1-3 man outposts to alert of attacks, resupply caravans/send materials back to the base.

Supporting/defending attacks on ally bases, helping others defend their ship. Gaining influence through these events to make collective economic/military decisions for the group. New colonies spawning and dying.

I also think infestations could be expanded upon -  the variety of bug, their type of raids, the rewards they give, their colonies ect.

Mods that have try to deal with these aspects have either been conflicting with each other or just overtuning everything to the players advantage.
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RedPine

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 03:32:13 PM »

The "Empire" mod combined with the "Rim War" mod achieves this effect.

Empire lets you build 'vassal' settlements that you can defend and tax.

Rim War lets factions fight eachother, potentially to extinction.

I don't know of anything that adds hand crafted capital cities, but there are a few mods that turn faction settlements into proper cities.  That said, it is extremely difficult to design a city that can withstand a raid from a late game player owned colony.  Even if we discount Neuroquake, mortar barrages, doomsdays, trigger happy shooting specialists, and targeted drop pods behind enemy lines, that still leaves the option of putting a mix of masterwork SMGs, sniper rifles, and power armor on 50+ colonists and walking in the front door.
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LakeWobegon

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Re: Fun and engaging military/conquest based victory condition
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2021, 08:23:07 PM »

The AI is just too bloody stupid, unless it improves a military conquest by taking a single city can never be rewarding; it will always be a chore. This is why the new design that forces raiding down the players throath (royalty and ideology) either he/she likes it or not is enfuriating.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 08:26:49 PM by LakeWobegon »
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