(Consumer rights) Discussion on Rule 1 and right to criticize.

Started by SilentMug, February 06, 2022, 07:22:45 AM

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SilentMug

This is about consumer rights.I sincerely hope to get a reply from Ludeon (RimWorld producer).
This topic will be saved in the form of screenshots.
This topic is translated using free translation software, translation quality cannot be guaranteed.

The right to criticize discussed in this topic does not include criticism of individuals, but only "games, modules, ideas, philosophies, opinions, religions, projects, social practices, companies, or non-human entities."

The purpose of this article is to clarify whether the right to criticize (not to individuals) is a right granted to RimWorld players by the owners of rimWorld.
In particular, some people claiming to be authorized by Tynan to manage rimWorld's forums are trying to take away critical rights from players
This action may lead to deviations in consumers' understanding of Ludeon Community rules.


As a consumer who purchases rimworld, I would like confirmation from Ludeon

Do players have the right to criticize mods and some behaviors such as copyright theft and bullying?(In particular, Through Ludeon Community Rules Rule1 emphasizes the player's right to criticize)

Canute

I can't speak for steam and their discussion, but at the forum i am very active.
I saw many criticism and i never notice that any of these got deleted.

QuoteDo players have the right to criticize mods and some behaviors such as copyright theft and bullying?
Don't forget mod's don't belong to Ludeon, they belong to the mod author.
Some mod author like to see criticism and feedback other less.
Some say their mod is their baby and how they like to change the game at their way they like and not how you would like to see their mod at your way you would like.
If you don't like a mod is going, noone prevent you to made your own mod.



Yoshida Keiji


Canute

Such topic's looks like regular rimworld topic's, but most of them contain some hidden ads links.
Special when it is the 1.posting of someone, just try to quote the whole message and you will see the link.

Alenerel

I cannot vouch for these two specific deleted topics, but I confirm that over the months a lot of topics were created by users with only 1 message in the forum. On one of those occasions I was very in agreement to what the supposed person said... I was such in agreement that I discovered that it was a literal copy, word for word, of one of my previous posts.

So bots do this copy old topics and after a time they modify their signature or the post itself to put ad links.

SilentMug

Quote from: Canute on February 06, 2022, 08:12:30 AM
I can't speak for steam and their discussion, but at the forum i am very active.
I saw many criticism and i never notice that any of these got deleted.

QuoteDo players have the right to criticize mods and some behaviors such as copyright theft and bullying?
Don't forget mod's don't belong to Ludeon, they belong to the mod author.
Some mod author like to see criticism and feedback other less.
Some say their mod is their baby and how they like to change the game at their way they like and not how you would like to see their mod at your way you would like.
If you don't like a mod is going, noone prevent you to made your own mod.

It is still free software translation, and the quality is still not guaranteed

Please forgive my Eastern euphemism
The critical rights controversy I'm talking about doesn't happen on STEAM, this forum, or any of the other "or one controlled by Ludeon Staff."

The central question is
"In particular, some people claiming to be authorized by Tynan to manage rimWorld's forums are trying to take away critical rights from Players"
An official forum claiming to be licensed by Tynan (if so) has the right to violate Ludeon Community rules? (Not related to local laws)

Also, because "Some say their mod is their baby". So, is it okay for players to criticize other mods for stealing copyright (in this case, claiming copyright art)? On the one hand it increases the "cost of crime" on the other hand it tells people that "stealing copyright is not right"

Canute

QuoteSo, is it okay for players to criticize other mods for stealing copyright (in this case, claiming copyright art)
Let me say what i would to do when someone else copy my code/grafic/sound from a mod i created.
1. try to contact the author and ask him to remove it or pay me. Or when if don't care much he should add some credits about me who gave him the stuff.
2. contact the owner where you can get download the stuff about copyright, so that mod and maybe author get removed.
3. if nothing worked, contact some copyright advocate, so he can get some cash out of the author.

Ramsis

Quote from: SilentMug on February 10, 2022, 07:39:19 AM
Quote from: Canute on February 06, 2022, 08:12:30 AM
I can't speak for steam and their discussion, but at the forum i am very active.
I saw many criticism and i never notice that any of these got deleted.

QuoteDo players have the right to criticize mods and some behaviors such as copyright theft and bullying?
Don't forget mod's don't belong to Ludeon, they belong to the mod author.
Some mod author like to see criticism and feedback other less.
Some say their mod is their baby and how they like to change the game at their way they like and not how you would like to see their mod at your way you would like.
If you don't like a mod is going, noone prevent you to made your own mod.

It is still free software translation, and the quality is still not guaranteed

Please forgive my Eastern euphemism
The critical rights controversy I'm talking about doesn't happen on STEAM, this forum, or any of the other "or one controlled by Ludeon Staff."

The central question is
"In particular, some people claiming to be authorized by Tynan to manage rimWorld's forums are trying to take away critical rights from Players"
An official forum claiming to be licensed by Tynan (if so) has the right to violate Ludeon Community rules? (Not related to local laws)

Also, because "Some say their mod is their baby". So, is it okay for players to criticize other mods for stealing copyright (in this case, claiming copyright art)? On the one hand it increases the "cost of crime" on the other hand it tells people that "stealing copyright is not right"

Hi, you don't have to apologize for using translation software.

I'm pretty much the most active admin in terms of handling folk these days with the exception of direct staff who take care of bug reports and similar things.

I'll yell/punish people if they go into a thread and act like a jackass. If you have a legit concern with content theft/etc and bring it up in a thread then be sure to report the thread using our report function and I or someone else will take a look at it.

The only time anyone's posts ever go missing or otherwise anymore, as far as I know, is when I wipe bots (we get a good bit of them) or if they were causing unwelcomed problems/trolling and wouldn't stop when warned.

You can also DM me directly if you're having a problem and I'll do my best to take care of it as long as it pertains to either this forum itself or the Steam Workshop to an extent.
Ugh... I have SO MANY MESSES TO CLEAN UP. Oh also I slap people around who work on mods <3

"Back off man, I'm a scientist."
- Egon Stetmann


Awoo~

Ramsis

SilentMug I owe you an apology; I have been testing new anti-spam countermeasures and it flagged your posting as potential spam this morning. I've since whitelisted you and am beyond sorry for the trouble, I am new with this system and am still trying to tinker how it functions.
Ugh... I have SO MANY MESSES TO CLEAN UP. Oh also I slap people around who work on mods <3

"Back off man, I'm a scientist."
- Egon Stetmann


Awoo~

SilentMug

Quote from: Ramsis on February 10, 2022, 12:03:00 PM


Hi, you don't have to apologize for using translation software.

I'm pretty much the most active admin in terms of handling folk these days with the exception of direct staff who take care of bug reports and similar things.

I'll yell/punish people if they go into a thread and act like a jackass. If you have a legit concern with content theft/etc and bring it up in a thread then be sure to report the thread using our report function and I or someone else will take a look at it.

The only time anyone's posts ever go missing or otherwise anymore, as far as I know, is when I wipe bots (we get a good bit of them) or if they were causing unwelcomed problems/trolling and wouldn't stop when warned.

You can also DM me directly if you're having a problem and I'll do my best to take care of it as long as it pertains to either this forum itself or the Steam Workshop to an extent.

OK, thanks for your reply and moderator's attention.

The attempt to deprive the right of criticism does not happen in "an Official Ludeon Discussion Forum, or one controlled by Ludeon staff". This matter is more complicated.... I will confirm the details with you in a private message.


(Although I really wanted to know about IGNI's Lost Forest Suffering "This item is incompatible with RimWorld." In RimWorld's STEAM Workshop, was it a response from Ludeon? But this is another topic content... Well, can I send you a link to this topic?
(And, does Report to Moderator not just mean 'to Report irregularities and infringements' but also to ask for the moderator's attention? OK, I will use this function to report other content that needs the attention of moderators.)


but i want to know now
Are other official forums (official forums other than "Here and Ludeon Staff Control Forum") also subject to Ludeon Community Rules?
Or is there another possibility?

And I really want to know about the right to criticize. Do modders have the right to "demand" players not to criticize their mods (as per Rule 1- not personally)? It's not "please", it's "demand". The difference is that "please" can't punish non-compliance, whereas "demand" has a certain... Consequences of non-compliance.
(It is possible that the translation of these words is not accurate... I know these words don't have these extended meanings in English.)

SilentMug

Quote from: Ramsis on February 12, 2022, 08:49:25 AM
SilentMug I owe you an apology; I have been testing new anti-spam countermeasures and it flagged your posting as potential spam this morning. I've since whitelisted you and am beyond sorry for the trouble, I am new with this system and am still trying to tinker how it functions.
And, you don't have to apologize. Anti-spam countermeasures are normal.
Due to the..."sensitivity" of my discussion of these topics, I have to be cautious.

Ramsis

Quote from: SilentMug on February 14, 2022, 09:31:00 AM
Quote from: Ramsis on February 10, 2022, 12:03:00 PM


Hi, you don't have to apologize for using translation software.

I'm pretty much the most active admin in terms of handling folk these days with the exception of direct staff who take care of bug reports and similar things.

I'll yell/punish people if they go into a thread and act like a jackass. If you have a legit concern with content theft/etc and bring it up in a thread then be sure to report the thread using our report function and I or someone else will take a look at it.

The only time anyone's posts ever go missing or otherwise anymore, as far as I know, is when I wipe bots (we get a good bit of them) or if they were causing unwelcomed problems/trolling and wouldn't stop when warned.

You can also DM me directly if you're having a problem and I'll do my best to take care of it as long as it pertains to either this forum itself or the Steam Workshop to an extent.

OK, thanks for your reply and moderator's attention.

The attempt to deprive the right of criticism does not happen in "an Official Ludeon Discussion Forum, or one controlled by Ludeon staff". This matter is more complicated.... I will confirm the details with you in a private message.


(Although I really wanted to know about IGNI's Lost Forest Suffering "This item is incompatible with RimWorld." In RimWorld's STEAM Workshop, was it a response from Ludeon? But this is another topic content... Well, can I send you a link to this topic?
(And, does Report to Moderator not just mean 'to Report irregularities and infringements' but also to ask for the moderator's attention? OK, I will use this function to report other content that needs the attention of moderators.)


but i want to know now
Are other official forums (official forums other than "Here and Ludeon Staff Control Forum") also subject to Ludeon Community Rules?
Or is there another possibility?

And I really want to know about the right to criticize. Do modders have the right to "demand" players not to criticize their mods (as per Rule 1- not personally)? It's not "please", it's "demand". The difference is that "please" can't punish non-compliance, whereas "demand" has a certain... Consequences of non-compliance.
(It is possible that the translation of these words is not accurate... I know these words don't have these extended meanings in English.)

Alright so I'm going to do my best to explain as much of what I understand from your questions and you can let me know if I miss anything. :D

As far as I know we had Lost Forest removed for breaking essentially our Terms of Service when doing anything Rimworld modding wise; it had bad code in it that was causing it to destabilize the client if it detected another mod. That's a big no-no and not only was against what Ludeon says when making mod content but I think it also broke several Steam side rules.

Reporting to moderator on this forum sends me a ticket of that post so I can investigate.

Reporting on Steam alerts myself and several others that there may be an issue but I believe it also alerts Steam's personal moderation team to investigate but I could be wrong.

Ludeon controls the Ludeon.com forums. This is the official forums for Rimworld; that being said there are... dear lord at least fifty-three forums for Rimworld that I actively know about, none of them are controlled by Ludeon, Tynan, myself (acting as moderator/community liason~support, etc), but instead are controlled by their own teams. We have no real power to interact or control what they do just shy of breaking the law or risking certain aspects of Rimworld from a legal sense.

On here we allow criticizing but keep it clean. Don't like a mod, well you can tell a mod maker that you don't like their mod but also be a nice enough person to take the five to ten minutes to explain why you don't like a mod. Don't fight about it, don't be rude, and certainly don't be toxic. Critique like an adult looking for similar adult feedback. I normally step in when someone reports a problematic review against a mod but those are far and few.

Now when it comes to Steam at most I can shake my fist and tell people to be nice when reviewing Steam workshop content; a mod maker reserves the right to block and report whomever they want from their Steam workshop page, can argue however they want, etc. My job is to make sure things run smoothly but the social aspects of the mod workshop is a fickle thing and at best I just tell people to stop before elevating it to Steam support to take care of... bit more of a wild west situation for a lot of the Steam workshop. :D
Ugh... I have SO MANY MESSES TO CLEAN UP. Oh also I slap people around who work on mods <3

"Back off man, I'm a scientist."
- Egon Stetmann


Awoo~

SilentMug

Quote from: Ramsis on February 14, 2022, 09:49:50 AM

Alright so I'm going to do my best to explain as much of what I understand from your questions and you can let me know if I miss anything. :D

As far as I know we had Lost Forest removed for breaking essentially our Terms of Service when doing anything Rimworld modding wise; it had bad code in it that was causing it to destabilize the client if it detected another mod. That's a big no-no and not only was against what Ludeon says when making mod content but I think it also broke several Steam side rules.

Reporting to moderator on this forum sends me a ticket of that post so I can investigate.

Reporting on Steam alerts myself and several others that there may be an issue but I believe it also alerts Steam's personal moderation team to investigate but I could be wrong.

Ludeon controls the Ludeon.com forums. This is the official forums for Rimworld; that being said there are... dear lord at least fifty-three forums for Rimworld that I actively know about, none of them are controlled by Ludeon, Tynan, myself (acting as moderator/community liason~support, etc), but instead are controlled by their own teams. We have no real power to interact or control what they do just shy of breaking the law or risking certain aspects of Rimworld from a legal sense.

On here we allow criticizing but keep it clean. Don't like a mod, well you can tell a mod maker that you don't like their mod but also be a nice enough person to take the five to ten minutes to explain why you don't like a mod. Don't fight about it, don't be rude, and certainly don't be toxic. Critique like an adult looking for similar adult feedback. I normally step in when someone reports a problematic review against a mod but those are far and few.

Now when it comes to Steam at most I can shake my fist and tell people to be nice when reviewing Steam workshop content; a mod maker reserves the right to block and report whomever they want from their Steam workshop page, can argue however they want, etc. My job is to make sure things run smoothly but the social aspects of the mod workshop is a fickle thing and at best I just tell people to stop before elevating it to Steam support to take care of... bit more of a wild west situation for a lot of the Steam workshop. :D
All right, one by one.
First of all, I have reported the topic I need your reply to...
The problem is that the description in the reporting interface is "Use this function to inform the moderators and administrators of an abusive or wrongly posted message."
The fact that I didn't send the connection directly is that I don't confirm whether sending the connection about the information would violate rule 5.

After that, it's about the lost forest of igni
Okay, let's talk about specific topics

Third, the official forum about rimworld
I suspect the situation you are worried about may have already happened... Details will be discussed in the PM

Fourth, about the right to criticize.
Thank you for making it clear what kind of criticism is protected.

Fifth, the part about the STEAM workshop...
Translations from free translation software have made it difficult for me to understand precisely, and I'll look for reliable human translators...