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Author Topic: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)  (Read 5878 times)

hwoo

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Hi everyone :)

For the last 1-2 weeks now I have been following a youtuber by the name Blitzkrieger ( http://m.youtube.com/#/user/Blitzkriegsler ). He's been doing lets plays of each available version of rim world and each episode always makes me want the game that much more due to its innovative interaction and unique experience.

The only thing i noticed was that defending raids soon grew into the same old method once you had a method down. Ie blitz's waffle method.the outcome was pretty much guaranteed and the fight the same each time.

I know this is pre Alpha but i have a few ideas of turret types and vehicles that could really change up each fight so regardless of if you had all the high tech or low. You can never trully prepare a complete defeat of the enemy.

Here's my ideas (please go gentle, first post. I did check for similar topics but they weren't along my topics lines of detail)

TURRETS+UPGRADES

Machine gun(starting turret)

Stats-ROF(High)Range(Medium)Dam(Low)Battery Drain(Medium)
Upgrades-1)cooling(5 shots instead of 3(already there i know)
2)Tracer rounds (Increased accuracy)
3)(special) Heavy rounds /Stats-Slow Rof,High Dam,Range Medium) Small chance of rounds detonating in magazine(turret disabled no explosion. Fix=repair)

missile Launcher (Reasearch before available)
(Chance to self detonate while firing, can be overcome by hardened casing upgrade)

Stats-ROF(Low)Range(Long)Dam(Medium+Medium AOE)Battery use (Very HIgh)
Upgrades-1)Targeting array(increased Acc)
2)Hardened munition casing(-70% chance of self detonation while firing(chance is already low to begin with FWI)
3)(special) Seeker missile/Stats-ROF Medium,Medium Dam(no AOE),Range Long(locks on and guides to enemies in range)

Flame tower(Research before available)
(if fuel tanks at back of turret are hit there's a chance of immediate detonation)

Stats-ROF(Very High)Range(low)Dam(very high+wide firing arch)Battery Use(very high)
Upgrades-1)Napalm(burns longer)
2)High pressure nozzle(longer range, reduced spread)
3)Snub nozzle(wider spread(AOE),very short range)

Sonar tower(research before available)
(Detects life forms(bandits and animals show up as the same red blip until upgraded) if fog of war is in game)

Stats-Range(long)Battery use(low)
Upgrades-1)long range scan(very long range)
2)Detailed scan(separates blips for raiders and animals)
3)Weapon scan(identifies weapons being carried by raiders in range)
(On phone will add rest soon. Dam slow phone :/. Please leave thoughts and criticism of first idea. Hope to see this game grow)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:38:44 PM by hwoo »
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hwoo

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 05:28:31 PM »

Vehicles+Upgrades
(A garage must be built for any vehicle to be made and stored for repairs. Per vehicle)

(raiders have access to these vehicles as time progresses and may have a varied stat line of armour/weapons/occupancy for vehicles. Hell raiders scrap things and throw stuff together. Expect speeder skips of 3 men occupancy maybe xD)

Scout bike
(very fast 1-2 man vehicle used for scouting/snatch and grabs)

Stats-Speed(very fast)Armour(light 60HP)occupants([email protected]%speed/[email protected]%speed),
Requirements-1battery,50metal,low maintenance,Garage space needed low

Rovers
(medium speed basic transport vehicle 4 person)

Stats-speed (medium),Armour(medium 200HP)occupants(4people)
Requirements-4batterys,150metal,medium maintenance,garage space medium.
Upgrades-1)person operated light chain gun at the back of rover(100metal+standard turret)
2)Heavy hull(150 /metal,+100HP-35%speed)

Hover skip
(like a hover helicopter, no offensive weapons, travels over walls and terrain,transport, chance to crash land if not properly maintained,passengers at the side doors can use thier personal weapons(2))

Stats-Speed(medium 1-3 passengers, low 4-6)Armour(200HP)
Requirements-6 batteries,400 metal,high maintenance,large garage space needed
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:37:23 PM by hwoo »
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Tynan

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 07:18:01 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!
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Sundaysmile

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 07:22:20 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!

While Vehicles might be out of the question, what about something akin to a wheel barrow?  A helping hand that allows a colonist to carry more than the 75 pieces of haulage?  Maybe even lash a Muffalo to the thing and have it pull it along? 

Stuff like that
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ShadowDragon8685

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 08:22:26 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

If you do that, then you're going to need to rework combat to make one-hit-kills practically impossible. Without turrets to draw fire and pin down the bandits, actually fighting off the raids as they are would be more or less impossible, as each fight would result in at least one or two casualties.

You need to make it so that folk don't die until they hit like, -100% of their maximum hit points or whatever, thus giving the player time to send another colonist to drag a wounded and downed character to safety. (Which should also be something you can do so those useless pacifist con artists can actually do something meaningful.) Later on, it would be nice if characters could administer a combat stim that gets a colonist back in the fight.

Quote
The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Which would make it even worse on the player, guaranteeing massive, unrecoverable casualties. And then there's the question of "if the raiders have artillery, why can't I have artillery?" Which just means that raid groups will get hammered before they even get set-up by the player's entrenched guns.

Look, I know it's not in keeping with your vision, but there is always going to be an optimal defensive solution. And let's face it - guys on foot with guns simply will not be able to threaten a sufficiently entrenched position unless there's absolutely absurd numbers of them. Even if you give the bad guys all the appropriate tools - explosive charges to blast through walls instead of lighting them on fire, rocket launchers to do that at range, etcetera - they're still just AI controlled mobs. A sufficiently prepared player, with enough understanding of the combat AI, will always find a "degenerate" strategy, which I take is you-speak for "cheap strategy that wins all the time."

Face it, at some point, raiders with rifles and grenades simply are not a threat to a settlement, not unless they're coming in like a real, true army. Which is just kind of excessively unfair.

Quote
Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Difficult, yes, but it may be the only way to avoid - or at least make sufficiently varied - the "degenerate strategy" you fear. Most players, I think, revert to Dwarf Fortress type, simply because raiders can't knock down the stone walls of the mountain. They then erect a killbox out front of the sole entrance to the mountain fortress, which is the only reasonable answer to the unceasing bandit raids that Cassandra throws. That's part of the reason it's become a turret-defense game: because the only challenge she throws is "Oh look, another horde of raiders come to join the two hundred already in the ground."

Which, in and of itself, makes you start to ask: why? Why do they keep coming, when you've accounted for enough corpses to constitute several entire platoons of dead bandits. These guys aren't bandits, they're zealot fanatics looking to get their murder on, and badly enough to run headlong into an obvious kill-zone.

Now, I'll admit that I'm not a pirate king, but I thought the point of being a pirate/bandit/raider/whatever was to maximize the amount of loot you gain whilst minimizing the amount of casualties you take. Even Vikings didn't go bloodthirsty killcrush murdering when they could just make off with the cash and vamoose.

If you want to stop the game from being a turret defense game, make the bad guys who show up have different and varied objectives. They might want money, and just leave you alone if you fork it over. They might be starving, and might be willing to kill to get your food, but equally as happy to just take food and leave. (Or they could even potentially be recruited, if you have enough plenty to make it clear that settling here is a good idea.) They might be lawmen looking to confiscate your heavy weapons, and will leave peacefully if you turn over everything you have above the bolt-action rifles, or at least, everything you convince them you have. (As if.)

In most of the cases, though, they should be looking to get their objectives and leave. There might also, of course, be true pirates who follow a code of all-or-nothing, where if you don't capitulate they hunt every last person in your settlement down, or outright fanatics who won't be satisfied with anything but death, but by and large they should be willing to let you pass if you appease them - whether that means handing over money, food, metal, or even members of your colony as slaves.

And the should also have different thresholds of when to cut and run. Except for the kind of zealot fanatics who fight until the last pulse of the last man's blood squirts out of his wounds, the rest should have cut-and-run thresholds. Slave-hunters looking for an easy score should probably bug out as soon as they realize they're not going to be getting any slaves here without a steep price in their own blood, same with bandits who are after money. Folk who are desperate for food should have a higher threshold, as should law-men who take exception to your outpost (and for some reason aren't willing to evacuate you,) and pirates who are willing to kill every last one of you. (Just because they're willing to kill all of you because you chose to resist doesn't mean they're willing to kill all of them when you choose to resist effectively.)

Also, there should probably be some kind of ranged stun weapon that can stop people from running reliably, so you can get close and incapacitate them. I hardly ever get prisoners because my effective means of fighting off bandits results in platoons of corpses rather than so much as a single prisoner. Obviously, slavers would want to use this on you, but you should be able to use it to stop runners and drag them to your jail cell for a nice thorough beating.
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maxthebeast11

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 08:30:11 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!

I made an account to say that I'm extremely pleased with this decision. I felt like the game eventually became one about tower defense and with each turret that you built the strategy slowly oozed out of the experience. My opinion isn't worth much, but you've erased most of the serious doubts I had about this game's future.
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ShadowDragon8685

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 08:31:54 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!

I made an account to say that I'm extremely pleased with this decision. I felt like the game eventually became one about tower defense and with each turret that you built the strategy slowly oozed out of the experience. My opinion isn't worth much, but you've erased most of the serious doubts I had about this game's future.

Removing the turrets won't do anything to stop "cheap" defensive strategies. They'll just become about using explosive charges to waste people filing down the kill zone while being fired upon by snipers at the other end.
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maxthebeast11

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 08:37:13 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!

I made an account to say that I'm extremely pleased with this decision. I felt like the game eventually became one about tower defense and with each turret that you built the strategy slowly oozed out of the experience. My opinion isn't worth much, but you've erased most of the serious doubts I had about this game's future.

Removing the turrets won't do anything to stop "cheap" defensive strategies. They'll just become about using explosive charges to waste people filing down the kill zone while being fired upon by snipers at the other end.

That's assuming that, at some point in the game's development, the enemy ai doesn't find a way to counter those tactics.
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ShadowDragon8685

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 10:33:01 PM »

That's assuming that, at some point in the game's development, the enemy ai doesn't find a way to counter those tactics.

Short of having the AI cut through the original rock walls of the map - something which is pretty much guaranteed not to happen, otherwise you'll have much hilarity with raiders digging their way to you through an entire mountain - there isn't any way for the AI to counter a well-dug-in killbox. If the players need to, they simply will carve the entire freaking killbox from the mountain itself.

Simply put, when the defender has the luxury of preparing their terrain ahead of time (kind of a given, in base-building games,) and if besieging them to force them to either come out and fight or starve isn't an option (which it isn't, in a game like this,) and absent bunker-busting missiles, air support and orbital kinetic perpetrators (things which would be hilariously unfair and un-fun to give the raider in a game like this,) you're in a classic Sun Tzu situation.

It's like in Dwarf Fortress. Sieges aren't really a threat to a prepared, dug-in fortress, unless the player has made an hilarious error. They just make life inconvenient for awhile.

The only ways to change that are to give the AI insta-win buttons, which would make me question spending $30 to back this game. Because frankly, if they need to bring artillery guns to break open your rinky-dink little improvised colony, you're not worth the effort, the expense, and the cost in life.
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aerojet029

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 03:48:03 AM »

The AI should be telling a story using gameplay as a driving mechanism. It shouldn't force the player to play offensively or defensively specifically. for example, my play style in most RTS's is SUPER TURTLE, while a lot of people find rushing very effective (taking the initiative). Forcing people to one play style doesn't solve any problems, except less work for you.
           

              here's a brief example i came up with
(Super fortified fortress: late game)
             meet with a representative from a neighboring colony about trading back that "passerby" that you took prisoner.... but
             negotiations fail, because your colonist sucks at Social (even maximum social should have a chance to fail)... but luckily he/she has a
             really good gun skill, therefore you barely make it
             back to base. Relations with that colony reach an all time low. so they raid your base, but realize they can't meet their goal of
             releasing the prisoner , so they open relations on your demands

            here every thing was left up to Chance, The player had a clear reason why it was attacked, dealt with appropriately and no               
            unnecessary losses. It should be about risk management. maybe the player instead sends a team of armed people to stop
            negotiations immediately, and the AI decides that this time not to attack (50/50 chance)

you take traveler hostage
AI either:
         50% nothing (apparently nobody cares about him, or there isn't another colony)
         50% open negations (maybe first time hearing about a new colony) [faction relations]*
                    simple, either someone cares you took him or not
        *faction relations would have to be worked into the game for this specific example to work
               make a framework to add more options for the AI to "choose" that you can add at a later date
         

as far as the actual AI is concerned it just just have a list of possible actions, and a probability associated with that outcome, hard part being setting up the "event" handlers and stuff to properly deal with something like this
             

you put a lot of emphasis in the AI "storyteller" but you never told us what the story was (keep it that way)



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hwoo

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 03:57:47 AM »

Raids are the second most interesting thing I find i enjoy immensely about the game. Because it makes you adapt your colony around the possible attack scenarios. Like "i should seal of that valley to make a choke point/i should mine into the mountain as its to open out here" it leads to radical thinking that allows the game to shine with what you can actually do

But when the raids get bigger. Turrets are pretty dam necessary.

I've seen a episode. Of blitzs where he was hit by two large raiding parties one after another. He used out his mines on the first group and if it wasn't for his turrets then the second one would of nailed him there and then.

They take the hits for the colonists and add the extra gun hand to level the playing field.

You say about taking the offensive but as it stands that seems like a guaranteed way to loose people as your only on foot. But that would easily change if you had a rover for example. Send it out with a driver and gunner to keep them occupied while your colony gets on with daily business. Or send out a scout bike to lure them towards a pack of rampaging muffalo.

It adds so much more options for players to make use of. And if your going to have a pirate king then that screams heavy raids. So them having vehicles(not alot of them) with you having the turrets to counter would make for memorable fights. As someone said a raider party wouldn't want to use up alot of resources just to take a dinky little colony. But a built up self sustaining fort? That sounds like prime target for a pirate king. Raiders dont build. They take. So it makes sense that the bigger the base, more the appetizing reward, the bigger the attack.
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Cassey

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 10:56:20 AM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

Hmmm, your the boss, obviously, but I rather enjoy a turret based game.  My crew of 3 or 4 people in the early game are facing better armed opponents and very quickly ("normal mode") are both outnumbered and outgunned.  The only thing I have working in my favor are turrets and time and my hope of coming up with a design that survives, because having to rebuilt turrets becomes a "find metal or die" race.

What I don't want this to turn into is some kind of real-time first-person shoot-em-up done on a square matrix where my reaction time is the only thing that matters.  If the goal is more colonist based strategy, then let us program them in advance:  e.g.  At least: When home is being attacked, don't go to bed.  Better: "Hey dude, you have an M-24, seek cover and snipe at whoever is closest" (without me having to manually select targets on a moving field).  Ideal: "Your being sniped at by an M-24, your pistol is a death sentence unless you circle behind the guy."

I'd suggest focusing on a variety of attack/defense/counter-attack options at the AI level so that there is not a "Best" solution.  You know the routine:  Tanks that do little damage, Glass cannons that do great DPS but can't take a hit, Range fighters in the middle, and hopefully 3 or 4 in between that balance it all out.  If it just becomes a reaction time game, your AI will win every time unless you program it to be slow, make mistakes, etc.

Anyhow, great game, probably logged 24+ hours since it came out 2 days ago (attested by the 2 nights of 4 hours sleep I'm running on).

Update:  Late thought (blame it on lack of sleep), but I see this as a simulation game - and its a might fine one at that.  As such, I expect to spend a lot of time setting things up, and letting them run.  Lots of start/stop, using that Space bar a lot.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 11:12:37 AM by Cassey »
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Astaldaran

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »

I actually don't want to add more turret stuff because turrets aren't really helping the game. I'm even on the verge of cutting them. They take the fight away from the characters and make it a tower defense optimization game, which isn't what RW is supposed to be.

The issue at hand is degenerate defensive strategies, and my planned solution basically involves siege tactics that require players to send colonists out to take down camping groups of raiders who are bombarding them with artillery and somesuch. Take it from a defensive game to an offensive one.

Vehicles are also a problem, I'm afraid, just because handling them in a tile-based engine like RW's would be extremely difficult.

Hope this makes sense!

I agree with this a lot. I have not played yet; but this game looks to be going the right direction and I am interested...but it seems like the turrets take so much of the struggle out.  Maybe they could be balanced by being really expensive (time, tech research + lots of materials..and maybe have to be manned) or something..but when I can watch Scott Manley prepare for an attack by simply building a couple turrets in the time it takes for enemies to cross the map...that just  doesn't cut it. Yes in some events you can still die..but the flaw is obvious.

Why not replace turrets with things like combat shields, armor, and manned turrets (basically  powerful weapon + some armor)
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Cassey

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 07:13:31 PM »

I agree with this a lot. I have not played yet; but this game looks to be going the right direction and I am interested...but it seems like the turrets take so much of the struggle out.  Maybe they could be balanced by being really expensive (time, tech research + lots of materials..and maybe have to be manned) or something..but when I can watch Scott Manley prepare for an attack by simply building a couple turrets in the time it takes for enemies to cross the map...that just  doesn't cut it. Yes in some events you can still die..but the flaw is obvious.

Why not replace turrets with things like combat shields, armor, and manned turrets (basically  powerful weapon + some armor)

Having played the game for going on all of 24 hours (actual play time), I can attest that turrets are not all-powerful.  They work great against early troops, but they are expensive, easily destroyed, and often useless.  Its heart breaking to see the 6 turrets you just spent 2 hours building and getting powered up being destroyed by one sniper with an M-24 safely shooting them from about 2X their range.  Of course, your crew with pistols can't approach the sniper either, he easily picks them off long before they get within range.

Yeah, 1-2 turrets can take out a similar number of low-level attackers, but by wave 3-4, with 5+ attackers, typically one or two will have long range weapons and they know how to use them.

I'm hoping this remains a simulation game - where you spend a lot of time building, setting things up for the battles, then watching and see what happens.  I'll be greatly disappointed if it becomes a reflex game (which things like blasting charges tend to be - at least for me).
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Ribbits

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Re: Vehicles+Defense Weapons Ideas(with skeleton stats and requirements)
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:38 PM »

I'd rather see vehicles over any sort of turret upgrades. I agree that they'd add to the simulation and give us way more options, as at the moment I'm pretty guilty of the 'Killbox' tactic.
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