How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[SpaceDorf]

Fair game for everybody, just watch how fast the rats stream out of the burning mountain home

Siege raiders never manage to destroy anything (significant) in my games.

Maybe at the very beginning, if a siege happens before any raid.

When the game is advanced enough though (after a handful of raids), my colonists simply deny them the possibility to deploy their mortar + sandbag fortifications 90% of the time.

How exactly will "adding more of the same" change anything ?

Thanks for ignoring the point of my post .. That a decent Lategame Colony can do that is out of the question.
But think about early/midgame how much harder it would be to get into this lategame if Mortar Attacks actually can
slow down your development and damage your stuff ?

Thats what this thread about, not Kindergarten One-Up-Manship that counters with "when i am grown up i am stronger than your daddy "

*huff*
*exhale*

So direct fire weapons that can destroy your outer perimeter should be used by your lategame enemy, together with
bunker buster mortars that can slowly break through your mountain and mess your inside up. And some EMPs for
your killbox. True Sappers ( Pioneers / Battlefield Engineers ) should be a fortress worst nightmare, they are the guys that make things go boom, not just a dude with a pickaxe.

And the Idea to steal unpowered Turrets is just awesome
Also in the same line of thinking Siegers could bring their turrets with them, instead of building mortars first,
the slap some turrets and batteries on the ground, build mortars and a windmill / solar generator ..

And yep Farming is to easy, while the Numbers needed to feed your guys are allready right the space needed for farming should be tweaked ( which is just one number .. the amount of harvested food per plant )

Given that, outside should have more features, one mentioned above was totally ignored :

What about making rooftops useful?
Rooftop turrets, solar panels, maybe even rooftop greenhouses. Glass roofs, too, for a mood boost. Maybe pneumatic tube systems for shuffling goods around, that are far easier to install in a normal roof than when under the mountain. To make drop pods more tolerable for those not turtling, add AA turrets that can shoot them down.
Maybe expand on the personal shield mechanic, and have building sized shields that stop drop pods and mortars from easily breaking through. Additionally, some kind of reinforced wall would be great!

Make roofs useful ! Things you just can't do under mountains ..

Personally, I am to dwarven to be kept out of the mountains. Reading Tolkien with 12 years and 10 years of Dwarf Fortress can do that to you, the only way to keep me from digging would be to remove mountains from the game

[ThiIsMe007]

Well, nope.

You're talking about "late-game" colonies, I am telling you that my "early-game" (after 2-4 raids, which easily happen within the first year of existence on the more challenging settings. I cannot decently consider that as "mid-game") colonies routinely repel siege attacks before they even have the opportunity to deploy their mortar.

If they manage to deploy their mortar (10% of the time), it's 1/ because I allowed them to do that, so that I could steal it, or 2/ out of necessity, because my colonists already are busy elsewhere with a raid or a psychic ship.

Once again, what you suggest would change nothing in the bigger picture. It would probably make it even easier on players, since they could capture even more powerful (and expensive) gear earlier on.

The solution of the issue is not how to deny players a way to play/enjoy the game, because you seem to have some kind of Big Bertha complex. There is simply no known artillery that can level mountains or large hills, even less human-deployed light mortars that could destroy fortified mountain bunkers.

The solution is to catch the players once out of their bunker, and for the game to give them motivations and opportunities enough to do so : because their colonists need water, wood and healthy food, their stock needs to graze, or they need to find rare resources outside of their "comfort" zone (and why not other, adjacent maps), etc.

[SpaceDorf]

I get your point.

I usually play on randy extreme, because it is the most fun for me, and I am in year three now, without ever getting a siege ..
Thats why I call it midgame content.

And it is not a big bertha complex. I don't want to deny anything to anyone ..
I just thinkt it would alter gameplay in a positive way if there where actual outside threats to mountainhomes.
If the Siegers don't have time to bring their actual threat into play, something with the deployment is wrong and should be fixed too.



Also I also support and proposed more features to lure the colonists out of the hole. Thats always the best incentive.

[ThiIsMe007]

I understand, and I am glad to see that we can agree in the end.

Rimworld is still in its infancy. I have faith in the developper to eventually make an excellent game out of it, enjoyable for most. It's already good.

If it's not vanilla, I am also confident that mods can help to change a lot for the better. JA2, which is still my favorite game ever, continues to prove it, and I wouldn't mind Rimworld to take more inspiration out of it in the future (turtling in JA2/v1.13 is not the wisest choice and quickly lethal).

EDIT : Yes, I know that both games are not exactly the same genres, but Tynan still seemed to admit some influence.

[SpaceDorf]

Yeah, I just had my first Siege in a long time ..

woah, that was underwhelming.

I took them all out, except two who where right next to the border of the map, without any casualties while tanking two triple rocket launchers. Captured one awesome new recruit.

Serously this needs fixing.

[b0rsuk]

You know what would strike a big blow against fortress colonies (underground and above ground) ? Wall maintenance. Walls currently never deteriorate. If you can build Wall of China on your map, it will never need any repairs unless a sapper team breaks through.

Wall deterioration speed would depend on craftsmanship. An awful piece of wall would deteriorate faster than an excellent one. Pre-existing walls on the map would be assumed to be leftovers from great crafters (because everything else had already fallen into dust).

Currently Constructors have little to do in late game colonies because everything is already built. If walls deteriorated, they would constantly have work in a big base.

[Reviire]

You know what would strike a big blow against fortress colonies (underground and above ground) ? Wall maintenance. Walls currently never deteriorate. If you can build Wall of China on your map, it will never need any repairs unless a sapper team breaks through.

Wall deterioration speed would depend on craftsmanship. An awful piece of wall would deteriorate faster than an excellent one. Pre-existing walls on the map would be assumed to be leftovers from great crafters (because everything else had already fallen into dust).

Currently Constructors have little to do in late game colonies because everything is already built. If walls deteriorated, they would constantly have work in a big base.

I wouldn't mind a very slow deterioration rate, at least for walls that aren't steel or plasteel. They very slowly lose hp, and you need to mark them for repair with a custom designation. It just can't be too fast, otherwise it'd just be a stupid mechanic for any base.

[chaotix14]

You know what would strike a big blow against fortress colonies (underground and above ground) ? Wall maintenance. Walls currently never deteriorate. If you can build Wall of China on your map, it will never need any repairs unless a sapper team breaks through.

Wall deterioration speed would depend on craftsmanship. An awful piece of wall would deteriorate faster than an excellent one. Pre-existing walls on the map would be assumed to be leftovers from great crafters (because everything else had already fallen into dust).

Currently Constructors have little to do in late game colonies because everything is already built. If walls deteriorated, they would constantly have work in a big base.

Unless it's very very slow it's bound to feel similar to the old breakdown system where randomly bits of your base took damage for no reason other than existing. If I recall correctly the majority opinion on that mechanic was annoying and pointless.

[Pax_Empyrean]

Having walls deteriorate would be a blow against bases that aren't naturally wedged into a chokepoint or mountain. Bases out in the open have more than enough disadvantages already.

[cultist]

This has probably been suggested, but I can't be bothered to read 29 pages right now: No more raiders with incendiary mortars.

The real problem with sieges is not that they hit and destroy your base, it's that the fires they create prevent you from doing about it. If a closed room with no exit to the outside is hit by a mortar and catches fire, that room and everything in it is gone. The temperatures mean any pawn going near the room is instantly downed and killed. Firefoam poppers? Odds are they'll be destroyed by the mortar hit and won't help you. Removing fire from the equation would greatly limit the damage done by a single lucky hit but still encourage the player to do something about it sooner rather than later.

[chaotix14]

This has probably been suggested, but I can't be bothered to read 29 pages right now: No more raiders with incendiary mortars.

The real problem with sieges is not that they hit and destroy your base, it's that the fires they create prevent you from doing about it. If a closed room with no exit to the outside is hit by a mortar and catches fire, that room and everything in it is gone. The temperatures mean any pawn going near the room is instantly downed and killed. Firefoam poppers? Odds are they'll be destroyed by the mortar hit and won't help you. Removing fire from the equation would greatly limit the damage done by a single lucky hit but still encourage the player to do something about it sooner rather than later.

Honestly I'd prefer them using only incendiary mortars. It's a pain when a lucky shot from the raiders with a mortar hits a colonist and he instantly dies(because that's generally how a normal mortar hit goes down in my experience). If it's fire then I at least have a chance to save him, the room being destroyed (if that even happens, fire can quickly be put out. Also more likely with normal mortars, with the instant damage and larger radius) so be it that can be rebuild, losing a colonist to an instant kill is far more annoying.

But regular mortars don't do much against mountainhomes, because overhead mountain and most of their vital stuff will be hiding beneath that overhead mountain. Aside from any fields they might have and any solar farms, but those two are more susceptible to fire than to normal mortars(what's more annoying a grenade or a molotov thrown into your fields?).

[Franklin]

I understand, and I am glad to see that we can agree in the end.

Rimworld is still in its infancy. I have faith in the developper to eventually make an excellent game out of it, enjoyable for most. It's already good.

If it's not vanilla, I am also confident that mods can help to change a lot for the better. JA2, which is still my favorite game ever, continues to prove it, and I wouldn't mind Rimworld to take more inspiration out of it in the future (turtling in JA2/v1.13 is not the wisest choice and quickly lethal).

EDIT : Yes, I know that both games are not exactly the same genres, but Tynan still seemed to admit some influence.

I mean, the game's been in development for years, so maybe 'infancy' isn't the word, but yeah, still being developed.

If the takeaway from this thread is anything, it's the issue is a matter of raid balance rather than player methods. Dwarfing is a symptom of an inclining difficulty that can't presently be mitigated by non-dwarfing methods. Solve the inclining difficulty issue, and dwarfing becomes less of a necessity.

Of course, the issue with that may be that players play with the intent of surviving forever, while the inclining difficulty mounts with the intent of ending a player's game before they complete their goal. If the player never attempts to 'complete' their game, then it's a conflict between AI intent and player intent, and maybe even balancing can't fix that.

[MeowRailroad]

A simple way that might make people more wary of tunneling would be poison gas pockets or bug caves, and when you mine you have a chance of running into these. They would be at least 10 cells away from the closest exposed face on world generation, so simple mining probably won't make you find these.

[chaotix14]

A simple way that might make people more wary of tunneling would be poison gas pockets or bug caves, and when you mine you have a chance of running into these. They would be at least 10 cells away from the closest exposed face on world generation, so simple mining probably won't make you find these.

Bug caves already exist. They can spawn inside any fog covered hollow, including the ancient danger structures. Bonus points if they dig their way out and release the nasty mechanoids without your knowledge.

[Darth Fool]

The problem with sieges is not that they don't have the right type of big guns.  The problem, as with sappers, is that the AI does not adequately manage/defend the siege.  For starters, the AI tends to target your closest colonist with mortars, which makes it easy to keep it from targeting valuable areas like farms and power plants until you are ready to attack, usually at night when they all fall asleep.  Better Mortar targeting, as well as bringing in battery powered turrets to defend at night would make sieges more dangerous.  It would still not address the fact that the AI is terrible against hit and run tactics.  Sieges should really be done by forces sufficiently large that you are not even tempted to raid them outright. 

All that said, making Sieges more effective will likely force dwarfing even more so.  Fortunately, with the additional events, sieges are less common than they once were.

The best suggestion, IMHO, is making roofs useful.  Allowing constructed roofs to generate power, allow sunlight in, have turrets, or other fun things which are not available in a mountain base is more likely to entice people to build outdoors then trying to come up with a bigger, badder, stick to hit them with.  Let's face it, the general rule of thumb is that the more dangerous the world gets, the better off hiding in a plasteel reinforced mountain bunker sounds.